I imagine someone has created a spectrum of ttrpgs with narrativist at one one end and simulationist at the other end (is this even the right axis? I could see other options: GM-driven vs collaborative creation?)
If I”m trying to introduce a group to how the hobby has changed in the last 20 years what’s a good series of games to break them in by? something to show them the width and breadth as well as the evolution ?
I recently tried Swords Without Master with someone who had last played Pathfinder and it was a step too far. I’m thinking I need to start with something a bit more structured (but can be quickly learned) and then move forward from there (+1 Forward!).
[direct offshoot of my last post but thought it better to start a new post than to bury this somewhere in the comments as a reply]
If your group is Pathfinder heavy, why not first start with the OSR like Dungeon Crawl Classics or Lamentations of the Flame Princess (basically 1981 B/X D&D)?
It would introduce the rulings not rules (or reference) mentality
If your group is Pathfinder heavy, why not first start with the OSR like Dungeon Crawl Classics or Lamentations of the Flame Princess (basically 1981 B/X D&D)?
It would introduce the rulings not rules (or reference) mentality
Listening
Listening
Go on . . .
😉
Go on . . .
😉
There are a lot of options here but I might recommend Jason Lutes material, which is a more classic OSR simulationist take on running a Dungeon World game. Perilous Wilds, Freebooting the Frontier, etc
There are a lot of options here but I might recommend Jason Lutes material, which is a more classic OSR simulationist take on running a Dungeon World game. Perilous Wilds, Freebooting the Frontier, etc
Dungeon World is a strange beast: situated between trad (d&d) and PbtA… Your Pathfinder friend might find it more comfortable though.
Dungeon World is a strange beast: situated between trad (d&d) and PbtA… Your Pathfinder friend might find it more comfortable though.
I think it’s a pretty good idea to also discuss what is different and specifically also why. Having such axis can be helpful.
I think it’s totally possible to start with something completely different (famous example: Fiasco) as long as it’s clear for everybody that this is aiming for a different experience than the typical Pathfinder session (and that all experiences are valid to be enjoyed).
I think it’s a pretty good idea to also discuss what is different and specifically also why. Having such axis can be helpful.
I think it’s totally possible to start with something completely different (famous example: Fiasco) as long as it’s clear for everybody that this is aiming for a different experience than the typical Pathfinder session (and that all experiences are valid to be enjoyed).
Have them play a single session game of Wushu, because its mechanics are all based around exploiting mechanical advantage to “win” (the way most Pathfinder players like it), but the mechanics are intentionally anti-realistic. My favorite section from the rules is the opening of Wushu Open: “Action movies have always been at odds with realism. Fortunately for us, their conflict is easily resolved with a series of savage kicks to realism’s face! … Sadly, traditional RPGs have long been in league with realism. They penalize players who want to, say, kick seven mooks with one spin kick by piling negative modifiers onto their roll, which makes them less likely to succeed. The inevitable result is that smart players stick to simple, boring actions and take a tactical approach to combat. Wushu breaks up this insidious alliance with a core mechanic that rewards players for vivid descriptions and over-the-top stunts by making them more likely to succeed, each and every time.”
The point of the exercise is to show them how mechanics and “realism” aren’t the same thing, and that the mechanics target and guide what game emerges.
danielbayn.com – Wushu | The Ancient Art of Action Roleplaying
Have them play a single session game of Wushu, because its mechanics are all based around exploiting mechanical advantage to “win” (the way most Pathfinder players like it), but the mechanics are intentionally anti-realistic. My favorite section from the rules is the opening of Wushu Open: “Action movies have always been at odds with realism. Fortunately for us, their conflict is easily resolved with a series of savage kicks to realism’s face! … Sadly, traditional RPGs have long been in league with realism. They penalize players who want to, say, kick seven mooks with one spin kick by piling negative modifiers onto their roll, which makes them less likely to succeed. The inevitable result is that smart players stick to simple, boring actions and take a tactical approach to combat. Wushu breaks up this insidious alliance with a core mechanic that rewards players for vivid descriptions and over-the-top stunts by making them more likely to succeed, each and every time.”
The point of the exercise is to show them how mechanics and “realism” aren’t the same thing, and that the mechanics target and guide what game emerges.
danielbayn.com – Wushu | The Ancient Art of Action Roleplaying
I think a variety of different games is a good idea, with only one PbtA on the list.
And there are a bunch of different axies, and figuring out linearly independent bases for roleplaying games is difficult.
I think a variety of different games is a good idea, with only one PbtA on the list.
And there are a bunch of different axies, and figuring out linearly independent bases for roleplaying games is difficult.
Well, I didn’t mean to do it, but I guess I successfully did this with my own group of friends by first running a fairly traditional game that only challenged a few preconceived notions (Castle Falkenstein), and then another game further on the other end of the spectrum that I didn’t even pitch as an RPG (Baron Munchausen). That was all years ago, but I think it helped set the stage for when I started introducing stuff that falls in between those much later (Apocalypse World, Fate, Archipelago, etc.).
Well, I didn’t mean to do it, but I guess I successfully did this with my own group of friends by first running a fairly traditional game that only challenged a few preconceived notions (Castle Falkenstein), and then another game further on the other end of the spectrum that I didn’t even pitch as an RPG (Baron Munchausen). That was all years ago, but I think it helped set the stage for when I started introducing stuff that falls in between those much later (Apocalypse World, Fate, Archipelago, etc.).
Warren Denning love DCC but worry it might be too crunchy to meet the ‘learn quickly’ requirement (?)
Warren Denning love DCC but worry it might be too crunchy to meet the ‘learn quickly’ requirement (?)
Ugh Justin Ford ! I’ve blown my rpg budget for the month but I’ve been salivating for Perilous Wilds for weeks now!
Ugh Justin Ford ! I’ve blown my rpg budget for the month but I’ve been salivating for Perilous Wilds for weeks now!
Yochai Gal I’d love to start with DW, but I think I need something to warm them up first — maybe something not medieval fantasy so that once we do get to it the contrast will make it all the sweeter.
Yochai Gal I’d love to start with DW, but I think I need something to warm them up first — maybe something not medieval fantasy so that once we do get to it the contrast will make it all the sweeter.
Gerrit Reininghaus Fiasco was one of my first ideas actually — these guys love Coen Brothers films-but I wasn’t sure if it was going to require the player’s to carry too much of the burden? (have only read through the free preview thus far) – I’m thinking I need to draw them out of their shells slowly…
Gerrit Reininghaus Fiasco was one of my first ideas actually — these guys love Coen Brothers films-but I wasn’t sure if it was going to require the player’s to carry too much of the burden? (have only read through the free preview thus far) – I’m thinking I need to draw them out of their shells slowly…
Lester Ward now Wushu was one I hadn’t thought of -Thanks! I’ll check it out.
Lester Ward now Wushu was one I hadn’t thought of -Thanks! I’ll check it out.
Jason Tocci yeah you’re approach sounds ideal — unfortunately I’ve got a pretty short runway with these guys so I’m thinking I’ll have more luck with games that run well in one shots -haven’t played either CF or BM – would they fit that bill?
Jason Tocci yeah you’re approach sounds ideal — unfortunately I’ve got a pretty short runway with these guys so I’m thinking I’ll have more luck with games that run well in one shots -haven’t played either CF or BM – would they fit that bill?
Roy Vieira Sure. I first played Castle Falkenstein as a one shot (by a GM running it specifically to teach me that there are RPGs beyond D&D). It’s a steampunk fantasy game that uses playing cards for resolution, so players pick when they succeed rather than letting the dice decide. We played without its wounds system, which was a little complex, just handling injuries narratively.
The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen is pretty much only for single sessions, as it’s a storytelling party game. Everybody takes turns telling tall tales based on random prompts you have no time to prepare for, but if you flounder during the story, it’s the other players’ responsibility to bid a coin and offer another prompt. (Our most memorable game had a friend telling a story based on the prompt, “Tell us, Baron, about the time you arranged to have an ape educated at Oxford, and this somehow led to the recovery of the crown jewels.”)
Roy Vieira Sure. I first played Castle Falkenstein as a one shot (by a GM running it specifically to teach me that there are RPGs beyond D&D). It’s a steampunk fantasy game that uses playing cards for resolution, so players pick when they succeed rather than letting the dice decide. We played without its wounds system, which was a little complex, just handling injuries narratively.
The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen is pretty much only for single sessions, as it’s a storytelling party game. Everybody takes turns telling tall tales based on random prompts you have no time to prepare for, but if you flounder during the story, it’s the other players’ responsibility to bid a coin and offer another prompt. (Our most memorable game had a friend telling a story based on the prompt, “Tell us, Baron, about the time you arranged to have an ape educated at Oxford, and this somehow led to the recovery of the crown jewels.”)
Roy Vieira I think B/X D&D is a good path forward then. Compared to Pathfinder, everything is very stripped down and de-powered. And there are several free rules online like Lamentations or Lybrinth Lord.
Roy Vieira I think B/X D&D is a good path forward then. Compared to Pathfinder, everything is very stripped down and de-powered. And there are several free rules online like Lamentations or Lybrinth Lord.
If I was introducing people to different styles of RPGs, I’d go with some that have strong mechanics around ‘how much’ each person can share and is responsible for. This might prevent people from getting worked up about having to be “too creative” or responsible for the story. For example Fiasco is a great game, but might be “too much” for some people (similar to Swords Without master story above).
I’d go with:
– The Quiet Year
– The Final Girl
– Microscope
– Cheat Your Own Adventure
All these are GMless, but in some cases can be run in a sort of facilitator / GM-based mode if necessary (e.g. lots of players, or people who only want to react to things, instead of sowing the problems in). Also, even if you run it as purely GM-less, if you are playing you can lead by example by throwing in problems and issues. They’re also easy to pick up, have minimal rulesets, and mechanical encourage an even distribution of participation in the story.
Also, most or all of these are easy one-shots, so allow experimentation without too much buy-in. Although I’m a HUGE fan of PbtA games and Dungeon World, there is a bit of setup there.
If I was introducing people to different styles of RPGs, I’d go with some that have strong mechanics around ‘how much’ each person can share and is responsible for. This might prevent people from getting worked up about having to be “too creative” or responsible for the story. For example Fiasco is a great game, but might be “too much” for some people (similar to Swords Without master story above).
I’d go with:
– The Quiet Year
– The Final Girl
– Microscope
– Cheat Your Own Adventure
All these are GMless, but in some cases can be run in a sort of facilitator / GM-based mode if necessary (e.g. lots of players, or people who only want to react to things, instead of sowing the problems in). Also, even if you run it as purely GM-less, if you are playing you can lead by example by throwing in problems and issues. They’re also easy to pick up, have minimal rulesets, and mechanical encourage an even distribution of participation in the story.
Also, most or all of these are easy one-shots, so allow experimentation without too much buy-in. Although I’m a HUGE fan of PbtA games and Dungeon World, there is a bit of setup there.
Jason Tocci that Baron Munchausen prompt sounds hilarious!
Jason Tocci that Baron Munchausen prompt sounds hilarious!
Yes Warren Denning , and an embarrassment of riches to choose from. I could always take them back to the Holmes set for my first intro to the game.
Yes Warren Denning , and an embarrassment of riches to choose from. I could always take them back to the Holmes set for my first intro to the game.
Tomer Gurantz I love this list. I’m even thinking that some games can build on others — e.g. use the outputs from Microscope and the Quiet Year for a DW adventure?
Definitely going to check out Cheat Your Own Adventure (have heard such great things on the podcast!)
I know how popular the Final Girl is but the crowd I’m going to play with is not really into horror films so I haven’t added that to my final list yet…
Tomer Gurantz I love this list. I’m even thinking that some games can build on others — e.g. use the outputs from Microscope and the Quiet Year for a DW adventure?
Definitely going to check out Cheat Your Own Adventure (have heard such great things on the podcast!)
I know how popular the Final Girl is but the crowd I’m going to play with is not really into horror films so I haven’t added that to my final list yet…
Roy Vieira Note: there has been talk of using The Final Girl as a way to run a funnel. You could use it with a village, where the “killer” is a monster, or with a group of dungeoneers where the killer is the dragon, or a beholder, or the Dungeon itself. And then use it as a way to create pre-game narrative just like you were suggesting with the other systems… just saying 😉
Roy Vieira Note: there has been talk of using The Final Girl as a way to run a funnel. You could use it with a village, where the “killer” is a monster, or with a group of dungeoneers where the killer is the dragon, or a beholder, or the Dungeon itself. And then use it as a way to create pre-game narrative just like you were suggesting with the other systems… just saying 😉
Tomer Gurantz you’ve piqued my interest! I will research further!
Tomer Gurantz you’ve piqued my interest! I will research further!
Tomer Gurantz I bought Final Girl and have to say thanks! Great game – can’t wait to try it out. My initial impression was that its theme was slasher movies but it’s so much more than that and could be used to reproduce games resembling films I love (or at least settings I would love to play in): Aliens, Predator, Blade Runner, Pitch Black, Black Hole, 2001 A Space Odyssey, Interstellar…
Tomer Gurantz I bought Final Girl and have to say thanks! Great game – can’t wait to try it out. My initial impression was that its theme was slasher movies but it’s so much more than that and could be used to reproduce games resembling films I love (or at least settings I would love to play in): Aliens, Predator, Blade Runner, Pitch Black, Black Hole, 2001 A Space Odyssey, Interstellar…
Roy Vieira yes!!! Welcome to another piece of heaven. The last session I played we were vampires going to see a romantic vampire movie (part 5) and the killer was a vampire hunter. It was epic. You can do silly or dark or a combo
Roy Vieira yes!!! Welcome to another piece of heaven. The last session I played we were vampires going to see a romantic vampire movie (part 5) and the killer was a vampire hunter. It was epic. You can do silly or dark or a combo