Dungeon World Magic Items
I was chatting with Brian Holland and was thinking I would share some thoughts with the rest of the community to see what people think.
This year, instead of writing a novel for NaNoWriMo, I’ve been writing a project that may possibly be released as a “Sword Breaker Presents:” product. The basic idea is sort of a journal full of descriptions of magic items and where they might be found. Jesse Ross and I thought it might be cool to release it as a stand-alone book with no stats. That way, it could be given directly to the players and they could decide if they wanted to pursue any of the entries. We would have downloadable stat books for various systems that the GM could reference.
Here’s where all this is going. Robert Bohl once posted that he didn’t like system neutral stuff because game materials are always influenced by the gaming preferences of the creator (correct me if my paraphrasing is off Rob). That holds up in this case. As I’m writing these, even as just prose journal entries, I have thought about how I might write them up for Dungeon World. Jesse and I talked about possibly hiring or recruiting “experts” to write up the stats for other systems. I have to admit, I think a lot of my entries would be hard for some systems to deal with.
An example of this is a powerful item with numerous abilities. In a lot of games this kind of thing would be annoying. It would either be too “O.P” or the GM would have to negotiate the slow reveal of each power. In DW you can simply make a Compendium Class out of it. The player can unlock the awesome as they level up.
A lot of the items aren’t really easy to use. Unlike a lot of game systems where powers are sort of on, off, one-shot, or pay-as-you-go, I can build in iffy results and consequences with a few easy lines for DW.
I like the idea a lot, if for no other reason that to inspire my own items. But I also like the idea of letting the players read the entries before (or during) play. Doing so before play can generate an entire adventure of campaign:
Player: “This ‘Hammer of Thunder’ sounds cool.”
DW GM during session zero: “Gregor, where did you first learn of the Hammer of Thunder, and where does legend say it’s hidden?”
OR
5e (or whatever game you choose) DM: “‘There is a weapon that might defeat the beast,’ the ancient wizard mumbles as much to himself as to you as he pulls a musty old tome from a shelf that looks as if it could collapse at any moment, ‘but it’s little more than myth. Let me see…'”
It offers a great way to give the players something you know they’re going to engage with, and lets each GM / DM customize it for their own needs.
I like the idea a lot, if for no other reason that to inspire my own items. But I also like the idea of letting the players read the entries before (or during) play. Doing so before play can generate an entire adventure of campaign:
Player: “This ‘Hammer of Thunder’ sounds cool.”
DW GM during session zero: “Gregor, where did you first learn of the Hammer of Thunder, and where does legend say it’s hidden?”
OR
5e (or whatever game you choose) DM: “‘There is a weapon that might defeat the beast,’ the ancient wizard mumbles as much to himself as to you as he pulls a musty old tome from a shelf that looks as if it could collapse at any moment, ‘but it’s little more than myth. Let me see…'”
It offers a great way to give the players something you know they’re going to engage with, and lets each GM / DM customize it for their own needs.
I like the idea of the book. I am uncertain about the value math of adding DW stats. You obviously gain a little in that it’s another way to describe the item and it’s of obvious use to DW players. You lose something in that it will make some folks who don’t play DW or maybe even hate it steer clear of the book. Maybe more to the point if they adapt the item to their own system they might adapt the DW stat block more than the text itself. Not sure how you feel about that. Anyway, if I sum up what you gain and lose I get this nagging feeling that you might be better off without the DW stat block. And I say that as a huge fan of DW.
I like the idea of the book. I am uncertain about the value math of adding DW stats. You obviously gain a little in that it’s another way to describe the item and it’s of obvious use to DW players. You lose something in that it will make some folks who don’t play DW or maybe even hate it steer clear of the book. Maybe more to the point if they adapt the item to their own system they might adapt the DW stat block more than the text itself. Not sure how you feel about that. Anyway, if I sum up what you gain and lose I get this nagging feeling that you might be better off without the DW stat block. And I say that as a huge fan of DW.
Ray Otus You would only download the stats for the game you want to use it in. They would never appear in the book. In other words, if DW wasn’t your thing, you would never see those stats at all.
Ray Otus You would only download the stats for the game you want to use it in. They would never appear in the book. In other words, if DW wasn’t your thing, you would never see those stats at all.
Logan Howard Gotcha! Sorry I misread it. Love the idea. I saw something similar done once in a module. It had B/X stats in it, but it also had a bookmark with DCC and LL stats. It occurred to me that it would have been much better with no stats and a kind of full page insert with various system stats on it. So, yeah. Do that thing. 🙂
Logan Howard Gotcha! Sorry I misread it. Love the idea. I saw something similar done once in a module. It had B/X stats in it, but it also had a bookmark with DCC and LL stats. It occurred to me that it would have been much better with no stats and a kind of full page insert with various system stats on it. So, yeah. Do that thing. 🙂
Brian Holland Generally speaking the entries are somewhat vague. They talk about the item and it’s “known” ability/abilities. Then they go on to suggest the most likely place they would be (giving some setting/flavor options). After that there are some warnings about what kind of things might cause trouble for the characters (some new monster ideas or suggestions for organizations or villains).
The separate stat book would have information that the GM could quickly reference if they wanted to use any of that.
Brian Holland Generally speaking the entries are somewhat vague. They talk about the item and it’s “known” ability/abilities. Then they go on to suggest the most likely place they would be (giving some setting/flavor options). After that there are some warnings about what kind of things might cause trouble for the characters (some new monster ideas or suggestions for organizations or villains).
The separate stat book would have information that the GM could quickly reference if they wanted to use any of that.
Logan Howard Most magic items don’t need that much stat-wise anyway. Describing the effects is enough for most uses, the stats just quantify how much/how long. (E.g. +1 for 1 hour, or d6 flaming damage.)
Logan Howard Most magic items don’t need that much stat-wise anyway. Describing the effects is enough for most uses, the stats just quantify how much/how long. (E.g. +1 for 1 hour, or d6 flaming damage.)
I can always use more magic items! I do not think it is a huge deal if a few of the magic items have different or even extra abilities in different systems. As long as the story/history is the same. this is a legendary sword that was used to kill giants. (plus 4 vs giants, advantage vs giants, trait:giant slayer, strikes fear in giants,…)
I can always use more magic items! I do not think it is a huge deal if a few of the magic items have different or even extra abilities in different systems. As long as the story/history is the same. this is a legendary sword that was used to kill giants. (plus 4 vs giants, advantage vs giants, trait:giant slayer, strikes fear in giants,…)
Ray Otus True. Your example actually enhances my talking point on this. Some games actually have a place for the measurement of hours. Some even require consideration of things that cause all sorts of headaches like number of feet (oh wait…most of the world doesn’t use the imperial system?).
Like Rob was saying, I tend to think in DW terms even when I’m not trying to do that. In my writing so far, I leave all that stuff open to interpretation and consider time limits or distances to be more a matter of what is fictionally appropriate.
I wrote up an item that has little mouths on it. Magical effects last as long as the mouth is chewing on what you gave it. As a player, you could try to push the time longer by giving it something that would take longer to chew. That’s pretty easy to write up in DW and the GM could have fun using that time limit as part of a failed roll.
A lot of the OSR people have a cool way of interpreting stuff pretty loosely and letting the “Judge” make the final call. I have no doubt they would be able to handle a weird item like that but writing the item up would still be a little tricky for me at least.
Ray Otus True. Your example actually enhances my talking point on this. Some games actually have a place for the measurement of hours. Some even require consideration of things that cause all sorts of headaches like number of feet (oh wait…most of the world doesn’t use the imperial system?).
Like Rob was saying, I tend to think in DW terms even when I’m not trying to do that. In my writing so far, I leave all that stuff open to interpretation and consider time limits or distances to be more a matter of what is fictionally appropriate.
I wrote up an item that has little mouths on it. Magical effects last as long as the mouth is chewing on what you gave it. As a player, you could try to push the time longer by giving it something that would take longer to chew. That’s pretty easy to write up in DW and the GM could have fun using that time limit as part of a failed roll.
A lot of the OSR people have a cool way of interpreting stuff pretty loosely and letting the “Judge” make the final call. I have no doubt they would be able to handle a weird item like that but writing the item up would still be a little tricky for me at least.
My take is that “system neutral” rpg products contain lots assumptions about system. Like that there will be an adventuring party or magic items.
My take is that “system neutral” rpg products contain lots assumptions about system. Like that there will be an adventuring party or magic items.
Robert Bohl Thanks for chiming in. I think I was a little startled by your original post on the subject. Then I thought about it and realized you were right.
We will make an effort to describe the sort of gaming experience our product is for and try to provide aids that will support those. It won’t be for “everything” but I feel like there would be several systems that could tap into it easily.
Robert Bohl Thanks for chiming in. I think I was a little startled by your original post on the subject. Then I thought about it and realized you were right.
We will make an effort to describe the sort of gaming experience our product is for and try to provide aids that will support those. It won’t be for “everything” but I feel like there would be several systems that could tap into it easily.
Yeah, the conversation we had pointed out that “system neutral” doesn’t have to apply to “all systems always everywhere.” You can say “setting neutral for fantasy games with adventuring parties” or something.
Yeah, the conversation we had pointed out that “system neutral” doesn’t have to apply to “all systems always everywhere.” You can say “setting neutral for fantasy games with adventuring parties” or something.
For the record, I initially framed this as a question (thread linked below):
Are system-neutral things ever actually that? Don’t they always include a whole host of assumptions about play style and preferences?
That wasn’t just a cover-my-ass move. I was / am open to being corrected. 🙂
plus.google.com – Are system-neutral things ever actually that? Don’t they always include a who…
For the record, I initially framed this as a question (thread linked below):
Are system-neutral things ever actually that? Don’t they always include a whole host of assumptions about play style and preferences?
That wasn’t just a cover-my-ass move. I was / am open to being corrected. 🙂
plus.google.com – Are system-neutral things ever actually that? Don’t they always include a who…
Robert Bohl Yup. I think it’s always good to very quickly put your assumptions forward for a reader. Build the context for them. It helps that a “book of magic items” is part of that context building in that you expect it is for settings where magic is real and items are routinely enchanted. But it should go on to either provide examples of games and/or spell it out “written for adventure fantasy games in which characters, often in a group, solve problems, fight monsters, and generally try to advance their position in the world.” Some trash like that.
Robert Bohl Yup. I think it’s always good to very quickly put your assumptions forward for a reader. Build the context for them. It helps that a “book of magic items” is part of that context building in that you expect it is for settings where magic is real and items are routinely enchanted. But it should go on to either provide examples of games and/or spell it out “written for adventure fantasy games in which characters, often in a group, solve problems, fight monsters, and generally try to advance their position in the world.” Some trash like that.
Ray Otus Robert Bohl I knew it would be helpful for me to float this here. I will definitely make my elevator pitch as explicit as possible. I think the combination of seeing how the product works and a list of the games we have downloads for will make things pretty clear.
Ray Otus Robert Bohl I knew it would be helpful for me to float this here. I will definitely make my elevator pitch as explicit as possible. I think the combination of seeing how the product works and a list of the games we have downloads for will make things pretty clear.
Robert Bohl I didn’t mean to overstate your position on this. I think I got the feeling from reading through the comments that the term didn’t work for you. Maybe it comes off as dishonest?
Robert Bohl I didn’t mean to overstate your position on this. I think I got the feeling from reading through the comments that the term didn’t work for you. Maybe it comes off as dishonest?
Yeah I think that’s a part of why I have a negative reaction to the idea of “system neutral.” It seems like you could be trying to trick people. But honestly, I think it’s mostly that most of the time when people say “system neutral” and I look into it, it irritates me that they haven’t taken their blinders off and seen how much they’re assuming.
Of course, everyone does this to one level or another, so I’m just a big, fat jerk :).
Yeah I think that’s a part of why I have a negative reaction to the idea of “system neutral.” It seems like you could be trying to trick people. But honestly, I think it’s mostly that most of the time when people say “system neutral” and I look into it, it irritates me that they haven’t taken their blinders off and seen how much they’re assuming.
Of course, everyone does this to one level or another, so I’m just a big, fat jerk :).
Robert Bohl I totally get where you are coming from. It doesn’t sound like a jerk thing to say. “System neutral” is a hollow and misleading phrase. It simply means “free of system-specific stats” or some such. Clearly every creator is in some way burdened by context and assumptions of which she is both aware and completely ignorant. Every game book that is “system neutral” clearly has affinities – it will work better with some systems than others, by genre and/or play style. And those books that have affinity for D&D and its clones and yet claim to be “system neutral” kind of cockily claim a lot of fucking space. They are pretending that there aren’t many, many systems out there that have nothing to do with dungeons, dragons, or other fantasy shit. I mean a “system neutral” book of magic items has Apocalypse World or Prime Time Adventures or Fiasco or whatever sitting on the sidelines with raised eyebrows going “Oh really!?”
Robert Bohl I totally get where you are coming from. It doesn’t sound like a jerk thing to say. “System neutral” is a hollow and misleading phrase. It simply means “free of system-specific stats” or some such. Clearly every creator is in some way burdened by context and assumptions of which she is both aware and completely ignorant. Every game book that is “system neutral” clearly has affinities – it will work better with some systems than others, by genre and/or play style. And those books that have affinity for D&D and its clones and yet claim to be “system neutral” kind of cockily claim a lot of fucking space. They are pretending that there aren’t many, many systems out there that have nothing to do with dungeons, dragons, or other fantasy shit. I mean a “system neutral” book of magic items has Apocalypse World or Prime Time Adventures or Fiasco or whatever sitting on the sidelines with raised eyebrows going “Oh really!?”
You nailed my feelings, Ray.
You nailed my feelings, Ray.
Robert Bohl Tearing off blinders does NOT make you a jerk.
I have have long admired your work exactly because you know how to get to the point. I’ve never seen anyone answer the question “what is your game about?” in a more focused way. I think I learned about MY from 1Km1Kt a long time ago. I was stunned.
I might approach things differently and have more interest in trope-laced cornball stuff but there is always a part of my brain that remembers the lesson you taught.
What experience am I really going for here? How does this reflect that?
Robert Bohl Tearing off blinders does NOT make you a jerk.
I have have long admired your work exactly because you know how to get to the point. I’ve never seen anyone answer the question “what is your game about?” in a more focused way. I think I learned about MY from 1Km1Kt a long time ago. I was stunned.
I might approach things differently and have more interest in trope-laced cornball stuff but there is always a part of my brain that remembers the lesson you taught.
What experience am I really going for here? How does this reflect that?
That’s so incredibly flattering. Thanks, Logan.
That’s so incredibly flattering. Thanks, Logan.
Ray Otus Before I walk away sniffling… While I don’t intend to put stats in the main book (because it’s meant to be shared with the players). I never said I would claim it to be “system neutral”. I brought up that earlier discussion because I was affirming everything you just said. Even if you narrow it down to only fantasy games roughly derived from D&D, your writing will be heavily influenced by the specific systems you enjoy the most.
While I think these are all easily adapted to games reflecting similar experiences, I find myself writing them and simultaneously planning how I will stat them out for DW because that’s my favorite game. That has to cause trouble for anyone looking to use another system. For one thing, balance isn’t even really that big of a consideration for many DW players. Everyone can expect to share the spotlight and do what their characters do best without getting shut out of the game by a class that kills more monsters, gets more experience, and can just do more things.
Ray Otus Before I walk away sniffling… While I don’t intend to put stats in the main book (because it’s meant to be shared with the players). I never said I would claim it to be “system neutral”. I brought up that earlier discussion because I was affirming everything you just said. Even if you narrow it down to only fantasy games roughly derived from D&D, your writing will be heavily influenced by the specific systems you enjoy the most.
While I think these are all easily adapted to games reflecting similar experiences, I find myself writing them and simultaneously planning how I will stat them out for DW because that’s my favorite game. That has to cause trouble for anyone looking to use another system. For one thing, balance isn’t even really that big of a consideration for many DW players. Everyone can expect to share the spotlight and do what their characters do best without getting shut out of the game by a class that kills more monsters, gets more experience, and can just do more things.
Logan Howard Ha ha. Totally. None of that was meant personally. We kind of hijacked your thread into a more general discussion of “system neutral” as a problematic phrase! I totally hope you do your book. I want to read that mouth-item if nothing else. Seems hilarious and fun in play! You have to feed it something chewy to get it talking, but maybe it’s hard to understand while it’s chewing? 🙂
Logan Howard Ha ha. Totally. None of that was meant personally. We kind of hijacked your thread into a more general discussion of “system neutral” as a problematic phrase! I totally hope you do your book. I want to read that mouth-item if nothing else. Seems hilarious and fun in play! You have to feed it something chewy to get it talking, but maybe it’s hard to understand while it’s chewing? 🙂