I just want to say thank you again to Jason Cordova for this goddamn Labyrinth move. I have had an idea for this dungeon under a sun dial that is constantly turning and opening some doors and closing off others and I kept thinking, “Dear God, I’m going to have to map this thing.” But now, thanks to this move, I can just throw some fiction at it and let the move do the work. Dreams, Jason! Dreams for you!
I just want to say thank you again to Jason Cordova for this goddamn Labyrinth move.
I just want to say thank you again to Jason Cordova for this goddamn Labyrinth move.
Haha, thanks. It’s become quite a popular little move; I see it all over the place now. I wish knew where the original text was.
Haha, thanks. It’s become quite a popular little move; I see it all over the place now. I wish knew where the original text was.
Jason Cordova, didn’t you intro it in an episode of Discern Realities?
Jason Cordova, didn’t you intro it in an episode of Discern Realities?
I’m using a slightly modified version of it for players exploring an orc occupied city. It goes a long way toward making the city seem big, winding, and dangerous without me doing much work.
I’m using a slightly modified version of it for players exploring an orc occupied city. It goes a long way toward making the city seem big, winding, and dangerous without me doing much work.
Edward Hickcox Yeah, I just wasn’t sure where it was actually written down. David LaFreniere found it, though.
Edward Hickcox Yeah, I just wasn’t sure where it was actually written down. David LaFreniere found it, though.
How’s the move worded, Ed?
How’s the move worded, Ed?
I don’t remember the exact wording, William Nichols, but the basic gist of it is that you hold a resource which you can spend to find things in the labyrinth (loot, useful stuff, etc – spend 1) or to find your way to its center (spend 3). You hold 2 on a 10+, on a 7-9 you hold 1 and encounter some threat or challenge of the maze. On a 6-, well, you know. Of course, you can modify it to suit your needs, change costs, etc.
I don’t remember the exact wording, William Nichols, but the basic gist of it is that you hold a resource which you can spend to find things in the labyrinth (loot, useful stuff, etc – spend 1) or to find your way to its center (spend 3). You hold 2 on a 10+, on a 7-9 you hold 1 and encounter some threat or challenge of the maze. On a 6-, well, you know. Of course, you can modify it to suit your needs, change costs, etc.
First thought is it sounds like the thief’s move in dungeon world, the trapfinding one.
First thought is it sounds like the thief’s move in dungeon world, the trapfinding one.
William Nichols Kind of, but for other stuff and anyone can use it. When you strip it down even further it’s basically any hold n, spend for effect move.
William Nichols Kind of, but for other stuff and anyone can use it. When you strip it down even further it’s basically any hold n, spend for effect move.
Also, it’s less “spend to ask” and more “spend to tell”.
Also, it’s less “spend to ask” and more “spend to tell”.
Cool. Look forward to seeing it on Thursday night.
Cool. Look forward to seeing it on Thursday night.
The original version of the move was written to abstract the process of navigating a vast labyrinth. Here is the original text, which has been re-worked by a number of people (including myself) for different settings/outcomes:
When you attempt to navigate Vlad’s palace, describe how you do it, and then roll +STAT. *On a 12+, hold 2 *On a 10+, hold 1. *On a 7-9, hold 1, but you also encounter a guardian. *On a miss, you encounter a guardian. *On a 1-3, also lose all hold.
If multiple party members navigate in turn, their hold is pooled together for the entire party. To find one of Vlad’s treasures, spend 1 hold and describe the room it is found in. You may spend 3 hold at any time to find the entrance to Vlad’s inner sanctum.
The original version of the move was written to abstract the process of navigating a vast labyrinth. Here is the original text, which has been re-worked by a number of people (including myself) for different settings/outcomes:
When you attempt to navigate Vlad’s palace, describe how you do it, and then roll +STAT. *On a 12+, hold 2 *On a 10+, hold 1. *On a 7-9, hold 1, but you also encounter a guardian. *On a miss, you encounter a guardian. *On a 1-3, also lose all hold.
If multiple party members navigate in turn, their hold is pooled together for the entire party. To find one of Vlad’s treasures, spend 1 hold and describe the room it is found in. You may spend 3 hold at any time to find the entrance to Vlad’s inner sanctum.
And here is Logan Howard’s interpretation for his zine, Sword Breaker (to give another example): plus.google.com – Hey +Jason Cordova, This is a move I want to use in Sword Breaker (my yet un…
And here is Logan Howard’s interpretation for his zine, Sword Breaker (to give another example): plus.google.com – Hey +Jason Cordova, This is a move I want to use in Sword Breaker (my yet un…
I feel like the Labyrinth move is unofficial canon at this point, like Perilous Wilds
I feel like the Labyrinth move is unofficial canon at this point, like Perilous Wilds
Ok, so I’m, 35 weeks late to this discussion, but heard mention of the ‘Labyrinth Move’ on the “Fear of a Black Dragon” podcast.
Can anyone give me any help retrofitting this to an AD&D setting?
What’s a ‘hold’ (some sort of player game credit?) what does ‘roll +STAT’ mean?
Thanks!
Ok, so I’m, 35 weeks late to this discussion, but heard mention of the ‘Labyrinth Move’ on the “Fear of a Black Dragon” podcast.
Can anyone give me any help retrofitting this to an AD&D setting?
What’s a ‘hold’ (some sort of player game credit?) what does ‘roll +STAT’ mean?
Thanks!
Goblins Henchman both of those are Dungeon World specific rules. The Labyrinth move is designed for use with DW so you should familiarize yourself with that first.
Goblins Henchman both of those are Dungeon World specific rules. The Labyrinth move is designed for use with DW so you should familiarize yourself with that first.
Goblins Henchman In DW, ‘hold’ is a currency given to either the player or taken by the GM to be spent on a specific action. In the case of the original labyrinth move, you got X hold on your die result, which could then be spent on a menu of possible outcomes.
As for roll+STAT, in the original DW version of the move, you would describe how you were navigating the labyrinth and then roll a stat that best-matched your narration (so, for example, if navigating by pure observation, that would be WIS. If using a complex mapping/notation scheme, that might be INT, and so forth).
As for adapting to AD&D, I’ll summon Tom McGrenery into this thread, because he may have some thoughts.
Goblins Henchman In DW, ‘hold’ is a currency given to either the player or taken by the GM to be spent on a specific action. In the case of the original labyrinth move, you got X hold on your die result, which could then be spent on a menu of possible outcomes.
As for roll+STAT, in the original DW version of the move, you would describe how you were navigating the labyrinth and then roll a stat that best-matched your narration (so, for example, if navigating by pure observation, that would be WIS. If using a complex mapping/notation scheme, that might be INT, and so forth).
As for adapting to AD&D, I’ll summon Tom McGrenery into this thread, because he may have some thoughts.
OK, thanks. I get the player currency idea!
In the mean time, still don’t get roll+STAT.
Hopefully Tom McGrenery will explain all.
I’ll have a stab at it first …
So if you have a WIZ score of say 14 how does roll of 12+STAT work. You roll a D20 and need to get 14+12 = 26? That’s not possible on a D20.
Clearly that interpretation must be wrong, because a low WIZ score would be an advantage – e.g. a WIZ of say 6 with +12 = 18 (which is doable on a D20)
:O)
OK, thanks. I get the player currency idea!
In the mean time, still don’t get roll+STAT.
Hopefully Tom McGrenery will explain all.
I’ll have a stab at it first …
So if you have a WIZ score of say 14 how does roll of 12+STAT work. You roll a D20 and need to get 14+12 = 26? That’s not possible on a D20.
Clearly that interpretation must be wrong, because a low WIZ score would be an advantage – e.g. a WIZ of say 6 with +12 = 18 (which is doable on a D20)
:O)
Goblins Henchman roll+STAT in Dungeon World is basically an ability check in D&D. Simple as that.
Goblins Henchman roll+STAT in Dungeon World is basically an ability check in D&D. Simple as that.
Goblins Henchman Ahh, I see where the misunderstanding is coming from. Dungeon World, for which the move was originally written, has a different mechanic. You roll 2d6 plus your stat modifier. I’m sure there is an easy conversion for AD&D, but I’m not the right person to ask about that.
Goblins Henchman Ahh, I see where the misunderstanding is coming from. Dungeon World, for which the move was originally written, has a different mechanic. You roll 2d6 plus your stat modifier. I’m sure there is an easy conversion for AD&D, but I’m not the right person to ask about that.
I’m looking at the probabilities in Anydice, and to keep things simple I’d suggest keeping it as a 2d6 roll plus the attribute modifier.
If you switch to a d20 roll, the modifiers become less valuable and the scaling doesn’t quite work. Though it might still be fun? In which case I’d replace 7-9 on 2d6 with 9-16 on d20, and 10+ with 17+.
I’m looking at the probabilities in Anydice, and to keep things simple I’d suggest keeping it as a 2d6 roll plus the attribute modifier.
If you switch to a d20 roll, the modifiers become less valuable and the scaling doesn’t quite work. Though it might still be fun? In which case I’d replace 7-9 on 2d6 with 9-16 on d20, and 10+ with 17+.
Hrmmm … got it.
In the past I’ve given some thought to a ‘D20 stat check’ vs a ‘3D6 stat check’ in (A)D&D.
In fact, in the forthcoming ‘& Magazine’ (to be published within a couple of weeks), I have an article that considers a ‘D20 stat check’ vs a ‘3D6 stat check’.
A ‘D20 stat check’ has a very different profile to a ‘3D6 stat check’. A ‘D20 stat check’ is more like a grind it out check, where as a ‘3D6 stat check’ is more like a test of genius.
*I will ponder this ‘Labyrinth Move’ in the context … *
There are other options too, like summing 2D10s, which would give a more bell-shaped probably (but less server than a 3D6).
Also, I wonder if you might be able to use a ‘hold’ to gain an advantage on a subsequent roll, e.g.:
:: D20 stat roll system: roll the next test with ‘advantage’ (5th ed parlance), i.e. roll two D20 and discard the worst roll.
:: 3D6 stat roll system: add an extra die to the test, i.e. use 4D6 (and use the highest three results; or simply sum them).
Got me thinking!
Hrmmm … got it.
In the past I’ve given some thought to a ‘D20 stat check’ vs a ‘3D6 stat check’ in (A)D&D.
In fact, in the forthcoming ‘& Magazine’ (to be published within a couple of weeks), I have an article that considers a ‘D20 stat check’ vs a ‘3D6 stat check’.
A ‘D20 stat check’ has a very different profile to a ‘3D6 stat check’. A ‘D20 stat check’ is more like a grind it out check, where as a ‘3D6 stat check’ is more like a test of genius.
*I will ponder this ‘Labyrinth Move’ in the context … *
There are other options too, like summing 2D10s, which would give a more bell-shaped probably (but less server than a 3D6).
Also, I wonder if you might be able to use a ‘hold’ to gain an advantage on a subsequent roll, e.g.:
:: D20 stat roll system: roll the next test with ‘advantage’ (5th ed parlance), i.e. roll two D20 and discard the worst roll.
:: 3D6 stat roll system: add an extra die to the test, i.e. use 4D6 (and use the highest three results; or simply sum them).
Got me thinking!
PS – in AD&D stat modifiers do not kick in until Stat scores of 15+ (so these rarely apply)
PS – in AD&D stat modifiers do not kick in until Stat scores of 15+ (so these rarely apply)
out of interest, what are the stat mods in DW +1 to +3?
And what is a ‘miss’?
out of interest, what are the stat mods in DW +1 to +3?
And what is a ‘miss’?
Goblins Henchman Dungeon World is based off a game called Apocalypse World. The core mechanic in Apocalypse World are Moves. Each Move has a specific fictional trigger, so when your character does that trigger, the move fires off. You roll 2d6+modifier (which usually ranges from negative 1 to positive 3). On a 10 up, you do what you intended to do (but I’m speaking generally here: the specifics are up to the move that triggered). On a 7-9, you succeed, but there is a complication or cost. In a combat, this usually means the enemy hits you (the GM does not roll for his NPCs and monsters), but it can also be things like “you drop your sword” or “you go tumbling down the hill” or whatever. On a miss (a 6-), you usually do not succeed and the GM gets to make a move of their own. GM moves are just actions or narrative outcomes they get to impose for free, no roll required. That’s a pretty basic, shorthand explanation. Importantly, it’s less focused on numbers and stats, and more focused on narration and fictional positioning.
Goblins Henchman Dungeon World is based off a game called Apocalypse World. The core mechanic in Apocalypse World are Moves. Each Move has a specific fictional trigger, so when your character does that trigger, the move fires off. You roll 2d6+modifier (which usually ranges from negative 1 to positive 3). On a 10 up, you do what you intended to do (but I’m speaking generally here: the specifics are up to the move that triggered). On a 7-9, you succeed, but there is a complication or cost. In a combat, this usually means the enemy hits you (the GM does not roll for his NPCs and monsters), but it can also be things like “you drop your sword” or “you go tumbling down the hill” or whatever. On a miss (a 6-), you usually do not succeed and the GM gets to make a move of their own. GM moves are just actions or narrative outcomes they get to impose for free, no roll required. That’s a pretty basic, shorthand explanation. Importantly, it’s less focused on numbers and stats, and more focused on narration and fictional positioning.
Addendum: you can sometimes have 12+ results, as the Labyrinth move does, which is usually a bonus or extra-great success.You can also sometimes have 3- results, as the Labyrinth move does, which is a particularly awful failure. Most moves, though, stick to 10+ (success), 7-9 (success with complication) and miss (GM move).
Addendum: you can sometimes have 12+ results, as the Labyrinth move does, which is usually a bonus or extra-great success.You can also sometimes have 3- results, as the Labyrinth move does, which is a particularly awful failure. Most moves, though, stick to 10+ (success), 7-9 (success with complication) and miss (GM move).
For me, a 2D6 system doesn’t really seem to fit the mood of (A)D&D that well. Something that uses a D20 or approximate a D20 roll seems more apt.
After a bit of a ponder (and some maths), it looks like a D20 (or summing 2D10) could reasonably ‘ape’ the maths of the 2D6 DW LM:
Possible Stat. modifies: 15-16 gain +1; 17 gain +2 and 18 gain +3 … ? Likewise negative modifies for ability scores 3 to 5.
(Clearly a D100% could be made to work too, but an appropriate stat. mods seem less intuitive.)
Edit: Posted before reading x2 Jason Cordova helpful posts above!!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nXZ47EQs9APeQBs5J1AmNXAs2h4AOGHaH5_fGndhs5FFTlPFcxUt-eeNIqa5R5mFZQ7JD8VUMYLAGw=s0
For me, a 2D6 system doesn’t really seem to fit the mood of (A)D&D that well. Something that uses a D20 or approximate a D20 roll seems more apt.
After a bit of a ponder (and some maths), it looks like a D20 (or summing 2D10) could reasonably ‘ape’ the maths of the 2D6 DW LM:
Possible Stat. modifies: 15-16 gain +1; 17 gain +2 and 18 gain +3 … ? Likewise negative modifies for ability scores 3 to 5.
(Clearly a D100% could be made to work too, but an appropriate stat. mods seem less intuitive.)
Edit: Posted before reading x2 Jason Cordova helpful posts above!!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nXZ47EQs9APeQBs5J1AmNXAs2h4AOGHaH5_fGndhs5FFTlPFcxUt-eeNIqa5R5mFZQ7JD8VUMYLAGw=s0
Tom McGrenery – like the 2D6 system, summing 2D10 makes any modifiers less effective for high or low rolls, which somehow seems more apt/realistic ?!!?!!?
Tom McGrenery – like the 2D6 system, summing 2D10 makes any modifiers less effective for high or low rolls, which somehow seems more apt/realistic ?!!?!!?
You chaps are no doubt a bit tired of hearing from me.
BUT! For a long time I’ve had an idea of a PC party trying to raid a Giant Ants nest (with the aim of finding the Queen).
Of course, the ‘Labyrinth Move’ seems to a good fit for this idea, i.e. a giant ant mound with wiggly tunnels seems a good fit.
In my idea there would be an entrance level and 4 zones; the queen would be in Zone 4 (the target zone). Each zone would have it’s own random encounter table (getting more feisty as you delve deeper into formic territory)
With this in mind, this is how I think I would try to implement the L-M (see image). You will see that in my modified system I’ve made an monster encounter possible regardless of progress made; except in the range 11-15, where an encounter always happens (if traveling towards danger). If traveling away from danger, the probability of an encounter could be reduced from 75% to 50%.
E.g. So a roll of 19 (i.e. 10+9) is a gain of 2 zones without an encounter; but a roll of 20 (i.e. 10+10) is a gain of 2 zones but with an encounter
If I understand the original L-M correctly, encounters only occur on a roll of 4-9 (which is a 75% chance of an encounter overall; same as in my modified system).
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/lQiZPbzT2uoDj11POdX2-GHsKHHIFuQI7FKPkkmS7SN-s7uRLE2yxTzziywMYxf98EdoIfpF9ZJGIQ=s0
You chaps are no doubt a bit tired of hearing from me.
BUT! For a long time I’ve had an idea of a PC party trying to raid a Giant Ants nest (with the aim of finding the Queen).
Of course, the ‘Labyrinth Move’ seems to a good fit for this idea, i.e. a giant ant mound with wiggly tunnels seems a good fit.
In my idea there would be an entrance level and 4 zones; the queen would be in Zone 4 (the target zone). Each zone would have it’s own random encounter table (getting more feisty as you delve deeper into formic territory)
With this in mind, this is how I think I would try to implement the L-M (see image). You will see that in my modified system I’ve made an monster encounter possible regardless of progress made; except in the range 11-15, where an encounter always happens (if traveling towards danger). If traveling away from danger, the probability of an encounter could be reduced from 75% to 50%.
E.g. So a roll of 19 (i.e. 10+9) is a gain of 2 zones without an encounter; but a roll of 20 (i.e. 10+10) is a gain of 2 zones but with an encounter
If I understand the original L-M correctly, encounters only occur on a roll of 4-9 (which is a 75% chance of an encounter overall; same as in my modified system).
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/lQiZPbzT2uoDj11POdX2-GHsKHHIFuQI7FKPkkmS7SN-s7uRLE2yxTzziywMYxf98EdoIfpF9ZJGIQ=s0
PS – no idea what a Grim Portent is!
PS – no idea what a Grim Portent is!
A Grim Portent is one item in a list of (usually bad) things that are likely to happen as the adventure progresses. Basically a bunch of “what next?” prompts for the GM to refer to.
For example: plus.google.com – Grim portents/dungeon moves for The Keep on the Borderlands This is the list…
A Grim Portent is one item in a list of (usually bad) things that are likely to happen as the adventure progresses. Basically a bunch of “what next?” prompts for the GM to refer to.
For example: plus.google.com – Grim portents/dungeon moves for The Keep on the Borderlands This is the list…
Tom McGrenery – how do these dovetail into the
MinotaurLabyrinth Move? Or are they independent?Tom McGrenery – how do these dovetail into the
MinotaurLabyrinth Move? Or are they independent?You can consider them part of your Threat list. But they’re also part of the overall adventure prep, beyond the scope of the labyrinth move.
You can consider them part of your Threat list. But they’re also part of the overall adventure prep, beyond the scope of the labyrinth move.
Instead of a monster encounter?
Instead of a monster encounter?
Where do I get a copy of the Labyrinth move? I heard it and really enjoyed it, but can’t find the details.
Where do I get a copy of the Labyrinth move? I heard it and really enjoyed it, but can’t find the details.