A follow-up from earlier today…
I have been thinking about my post earlier today, about Ben Dutter’s KS project (I’m naming him here because he identified himself in my original post; otherwise I would not). The project has been on my mind pretty much non-stop since yesterday.
At the outset, I do think there was a basic misunderstanding about Ben’s intentions vis-a-vis our community. I’m happy to acknowledge that. I should have followed up with him, but I thought by keeping my original post anonymized and un-shareable, I was creating a space for me to vent, highlight some issues I found frustrating, and then peace out. It ended up being messier than I intended, and I’ll own that.
But I also want people to try to understand where I’m coming from here: our Slack group in particular is a place where a lot of our members are really open and vulnerable with one another. There is a really high concentration of queer people; some of the strongest women voices in the hobby hang out there; and many people, regardless of who they are, put themselves out there every day in terms of sharing their creativity and emotions.
Ben paid his six bucks and was therefore within his rights to use the space as he wished, so long as he followed our policies. But this is what it looked like to me: a dude came into our space, milked it for what it was worth, and then dropped out in a way I found to be very off-putting. If it was just about money, I would have shrugged and encouraged him to stick around anyway. If he felt like he was free-riding, he could have run one of his games for the community. There were a million ways to handle it, but he just bailed quite suddenly.
Now here is something I am very sensitive about: our hobby’s tendency to keep elevating the same five white guys (NOTE: I know it’s more than five–I’m being pithy here). I talk about this all the time, and it shouldn’t be a shock to anyone who knows me. Even within the Gauntlet, there is a tendency to keep elevating, over and over, the same five white guys. And trust that I call our members out on it. Regularly.
Hopefully this is starting to come together for you: this white dude comes into our quasi-private space, uses the feedback and ideas of queer people and women for his game, drops out of that space in kind of a fuck-you manner, and then launches his KS. He in no way acknowledges the input of our community and he hasn’t hired a single woman for the project (I can’t speak to whether he hired any queer folks or POC, but women were standing in as my barometer for how thoughtful this project was).
In ways both personal and social, the project did not conform to the values I want our community to celebrate. And yet many members of our community were boosting this project all over G+, Twitter, and elsewhere. That is totally their right, but it is also my right to clearly express what I think about the situation.
Having said all that, I will take Ben at his word that he simply communicated poorly when he decided to drop out of our Slack group. I accept that, and, in turn, offer my public apology for not giving him the courtesy of touching base privately before venting. I am still disappointed that his team has no women on it, and that is enough reason for me, personally, to not support the KS. That is a stand I choose to take both as a consumer and a person who is doing his best to improve the diversity of the Gauntlet, which is nowhere near where I want it to be.
(You’re welcome to post comments here, but I won’t be responding to any of them).
I was happy to see this visible. This idea that everything has to be behind closed doors if it’s industry has screwed me over more than once, and I’m new to the space!
I’m one of those people on slack who will support projects I see and people there, when I am financially able. I’ve seen plenty of folks come and go using the community to springboard their own agenda and I pretty sick of it, and I’m not even an organizer in the space.
I want community members to be able to talk about this and furthermore, my vote is to hear about these things in a visible manner via the community like that. It affects us all. And it gets resolved without it being very messy, either. The Gauntlet has never been a place of flaming arguments where folks just want to hurt one another.
If you read the situation like that you clearly don’t know us and don’t extend best intentions anyways, and I’ve no use for your opinion if that’s the case. Organizers bringing issues forward will only happen if they feel supported so let it be known you have mine.
If you’re upset or angry or afraid or happy—I’d like to hear about that and know. I care about everyone here and telling me information I should have as a community member is the kind of respect I’d like to enjoy.
Thanks a lot, Jason and folks. Glad the both sides got to chat from their perspective and have it resolved. Hope everyone has a great evening and week ahead of you.
I was happy to see this visible. This idea that everything has to be behind closed doors if it’s industry has screwed me over more than once, and I’m new to the space!
I’m one of those people on slack who will support projects I see and people there, when I am financially able. I’ve seen plenty of folks come and go using the community to springboard their own agenda and I pretty sick of it, and I’m not even an organizer in the space.
I want community members to be able to talk about this and furthermore, my vote is to hear about these things in a visible manner via the community like that. It affects us all. And it gets resolved without it being very messy, either. The Gauntlet has never been a place of flaming arguments where folks just want to hurt one another.
If you read the situation like that you clearly don’t know us and don’t extend best intentions anyways, and I’ve no use for your opinion if that’s the case. Organizers bringing issues forward will only happen if they feel supported so let it be known you have mine.
If you’re upset or angry or afraid or happy—I’d like to hear about that and know. I care about everyone here and telling me information I should have as a community member is the kind of respect I’d like to enjoy.
Thanks a lot, Jason and folks. Glad the both sides got to chat from their perspective and have it resolved. Hope everyone has a great evening and week ahead of you.
Good post by Jason and Fraser. I’ d like to point out, though, that I’m pretty sure that many of the members of The Gauntlet who shared the KS weren’t even aware the game had been workshoped on Slack and that the author left the community under questionable circumstances (if it was abuse or not is a different question). That was certainly my case and I was one of the people you mention who shared the KS on G+. So you shouldn’t read too much into that, because had we been aware of it I’m sure we would have discussed it before sharing. That is why sharing you thoughts is useful, so that we are all aware of potential situations like this and can make up our own minds about it.
Good post by Jason and Fraser. I’ d like to point out, though, that I’m pretty sure that many of the members of The Gauntlet who shared the KS weren’t even aware the game had been workshoped on Slack and that the author left the community under questionable circumstances (if it was abuse or not is a different question). That was certainly my case and I was one of the people you mention who shared the KS on G+. So you shouldn’t read too much into that, because had we been aware of it I’m sure we would have discussed it before sharing. That is why sharing you thoughts is useful, so that we are all aware of potential situations like this and can make up our own minds about it.
Listening
Listening
It’s interesting from a creator’s point of view. I don’t solicit playtesting advice from the Gauntlet community, but, to be honest, my project was pretty much done when I joined the Gauntlet. My goal in joining the Gauntlet was to broaden the exposure of my game and to have the opportunity to play some new games.
BUT… if anyone contributes meaningfully to my game, or any future efforts, I will make sure to credit them. The bottom line is that it doesn’t really cost me anything to give credit and there’s no good reason NOT to give credit, unless someone is selfish or inconsiderate.
It’s interesting from a creator’s point of view. I don’t solicit playtesting advice from the Gauntlet community, but, to be honest, my project was pretty much done when I joined the Gauntlet. My goal in joining the Gauntlet was to broaden the exposure of my game and to have the opportunity to play some new games.
BUT… if anyone contributes meaningfully to my game, or any future efforts, I will make sure to credit them. The bottom line is that it doesn’t really cost me anything to give credit and there’s no good reason NOT to give credit, unless someone is selfish or inconsiderate.
Playing devil’s advocate here. There’s something that troubles me about this but I don’t have clear idea of what.
I’m wondering if people like Ben don’t understand how they’re intended to use the Gauntlet community. I’ve been following on G+ trying to figure out what this thing is and what it does.
He already established a communication issue, maybe there’s another one that he’s not aware of. I’m wondering if he came in, tried to get something specific from the community and didn’t get it so dropped out. Maybe he wasn’t comfortable with saying what he wanted out loud (Buy my game!) or didn’t have a cohesive idea of what he wanted but only an intuition that he wanted something he didn’t get.
This is of course, total speculation but it’s kind of how I’m looking at the community from the outside. Do I have the resources (time, money, attention space) to get value out of The Gauntlet and if I did, what is that value and how do I use it? I could see Ben’s response come from a confusion like that.
Playing devil’s advocate here. There’s something that troubles me about this but I don’t have clear idea of what.
I’m wondering if people like Ben don’t understand how they’re intended to use the Gauntlet community. I’ve been following on G+ trying to figure out what this thing is and what it does.
He already established a communication issue, maybe there’s another one that he’s not aware of. I’m wondering if he came in, tried to get something specific from the community and didn’t get it so dropped out. Maybe he wasn’t comfortable with saying what he wanted out loud (Buy my game!) or didn’t have a cohesive idea of what he wanted but only an intuition that he wanted something he didn’t get.
This is of course, total speculation but it’s kind of how I’m looking at the community from the outside. Do I have the resources (time, money, attention space) to get value out of The Gauntlet and if I did, what is that value and how do I use it? I could see Ben’s response come from a confusion like that.
Thanks for this post. Explaining a bit more about the nature of the Gauntlet Slack does provide some context for why certain kinds of interactions might be more sensitive and complex than they seem at first glance.
For what it’s worth, the kind of community you’re describing – not just a “community” of customers and fans, but an intimate group with understandably different needs in terms of trust and respect for vulnerability – might not be best served by the model being used right now. It communicates some potentially confusing or contradictory expectations to allow access to a Slack team (a platform without any ability to block or mute people) based on what appears on the outside to be based entirely on a paid subscription (which means anyone with enough money can buy their way in, and some might not think twice about unsubscribing with an explanation no less blunt than you’d offer to Netflix or a marketing email list).
I know that the model has developed the way it has organically, not exactly intentionally; that Patreon isn’t just a “subscription service” to everyone; and that “just change how it all works” is not a simple suggestion to throw around lightly. And I understand that I may sound like an outsider commenting on this. (I only back at the Codex level; I have wanted to up that to the Slack and Hangouts levels for a while, but have had to hold off due to the time and money constraints that come with being a new parent.) Still, I wanted to chime in with all this because yesterday’s post suggested a broader set of risks than a personal beef between just a couple of guys, and I would like to see this community flourish.
If you’re ever interested – if anybody here is interested, really – I’m happy to chat about any of this live sometime, or exchange messages privately. I’m a user researcher and community manager at my day job, and I’d like to be helpful if I can.
Thanks for this post. Explaining a bit more about the nature of the Gauntlet Slack does provide some context for why certain kinds of interactions might be more sensitive and complex than they seem at first glance.
For what it’s worth, the kind of community you’re describing – not just a “community” of customers and fans, but an intimate group with understandably different needs in terms of trust and respect for vulnerability – might not be best served by the model being used right now. It communicates some potentially confusing or contradictory expectations to allow access to a Slack team (a platform without any ability to block or mute people) based on what appears on the outside to be based entirely on a paid subscription (which means anyone with enough money can buy their way in, and some might not think twice about unsubscribing with an explanation no less blunt than you’d offer to Netflix or a marketing email list).
I know that the model has developed the way it has organically, not exactly intentionally; that Patreon isn’t just a “subscription service” to everyone; and that “just change how it all works” is not a simple suggestion to throw around lightly. And I understand that I may sound like an outsider commenting on this. (I only back at the Codex level; I have wanted to up that to the Slack and Hangouts levels for a while, but have had to hold off due to the time and money constraints that come with being a new parent.) Still, I wanted to chime in with all this because yesterday’s post suggested a broader set of risks than a personal beef between just a couple of guys, and I would like to see this community flourish.
If you’re ever interested – if anybody here is interested, really – I’m happy to chat about any of this live sometime, or exchange messages privately. I’m a user researcher and community manager at my day job, and I’d like to be helpful if I can.
A coda to both of these posts: a couple of people yesterday (in other places) expressed this idea that because my words are influential within this community, I don’t have the right to say them. That is bullshit. For starters, that “take the high road” standard is only ever applied to certain people. I see people bash Kickstarters on the internet every day (some of those people are the same ones who were clutching their pearls at me yesterday, incidentally) and no one goes after them about their special responsibility or whatever.
I retain the right to say whatever the hell I want and you retain the right to ignore me.
So let’s just put that aspect of this conversation to bed right now.
I’m not going behind anyone’s back with some kind of blackballing whisper campaign. This is me being open and honest with my feelings within this community.
A coda to both of these posts: a couple of people yesterday (in other places) expressed this idea that because my words are influential within this community, I don’t have the right to say them. That is bullshit. For starters, that “take the high road” standard is only ever applied to certain people. I see people bash Kickstarters on the internet every day (some of those people are the same ones who were clutching their pearls at me yesterday, incidentally) and no one goes after them about their special responsibility or whatever.
I retain the right to say whatever the hell I want and you retain the right to ignore me.
So let’s just put that aspect of this conversation to bed right now.
I’m not going behind anyone’s back with some kind of blackballing whisper campaign. This is me being open and honest with my feelings within this community.
Jason Cordova I don’t begrudge you at all for defending a community you’re responsible for. I don’t think you’re wrong but I’m sure you would like to try and prevent this kind of thing from happening again. My intent is to just offer a view from someone on the outside and possibly why a potential misunderstanding occurred.
Jason Cordova I don’t begrudge you at all for defending a community you’re responsible for. I don’t think you’re wrong but I’m sure you would like to try and prevent this kind of thing from happening again. My intent is to just offer a view from someone on the outside and possibly why a potential misunderstanding occurred.
Emmett O’Brian My above comment is not a response to anything in this thread. Just an add-on to my OP.
Emmett O’Brian My above comment is not a response to anything in this thread. Just an add-on to my OP.
Jason Cordova I just wanted to express my thanks and appreciation for this follow-up post. That’s just me being open and honest. As much as it couldn’t have been a cake-walk (apparently!) to express your feelings initially, to come back and revisit the issue with new perspective and insights to share is pretty outstanding. I really appreciate and admire your ability to engage in these discussions with both passion and grace. You continue to be someone I look up to.
Jason Cordova I just wanted to express my thanks and appreciation for this follow-up post. That’s just me being open and honest. As much as it couldn’t have been a cake-walk (apparently!) to express your feelings initially, to come back and revisit the issue with new perspective and insights to share is pretty outstanding. I really appreciate and admire your ability to engage in these discussions with both passion and grace. You continue to be someone I look up to.
I have definitely found your voice and the voices you amplify to be hugely refreshing in a tabletop hobby that is outright dominated by ‘the five white guys’ (I groan at their panel that is being shared around right now). I know that feeling of having a person come into a space, utilize it, and then leave in my own circles.
Sure, there was some messiness involved, but it was messiness because you were taking a stand on what the values and principles of the Gauntlet community mean. Knowing that these principles manifest not just in the written rules, but the behavior of leaders like yourself is reassuring. I hugely appreciate that.
I have definitely found your voice and the voices you amplify to be hugely refreshing in a tabletop hobby that is outright dominated by ‘the five white guys’ (I groan at their panel that is being shared around right now). I know that feeling of having a person come into a space, utilize it, and then leave in my own circles.
Sure, there was some messiness involved, but it was messiness because you were taking a stand on what the values and principles of the Gauntlet community mean. Knowing that these principles manifest not just in the written rules, but the behavior of leaders like yourself is reassuring. I hugely appreciate that.
What Rob Abrazado said.
What Rob Abrazado said.
Open communication and honesty about a particular subject should never be silenced, barring it isn’t causing someone actual harm. I’m glad for the conversation and think that they should continue to happen, less they be snuffed out! Thanks Jason!
Open communication and honesty about a particular subject should never be silenced, barring it isn’t causing someone actual harm. I’m glad for the conversation and think that they should continue to happen, less they be snuffed out! Thanks Jason!
Emmett O’Brian I mean, I think that there was a communication issue, sure. But like… Patreon isn’t really there for quid pro quo? It’s ostensibly used to support the creators you like. If you’re viewing access to the community as a way to get something out of it monetarily, it’s no wonder you’d find yourself not getting whatever you’re looking for, right?
Slack is another vector to interact with the community. Because you pay for it doesn’t mean it’s a service, it’s added value because that’s how much you want to give to support the community. All of the Patreon money goes toward codex and production for the postcasts. You can use Slack purely to get people to buy your stuff, sure. But that’s how you choose to interact with the community. The actual value is the new way of interacting with the community you want to support.
Emmett O’Brian I mean, I think that there was a communication issue, sure. But like… Patreon isn’t really there for quid pro quo? It’s ostensibly used to support the creators you like. If you’re viewing access to the community as a way to get something out of it monetarily, it’s no wonder you’d find yourself not getting whatever you’re looking for, right?
Slack is another vector to interact with the community. Because you pay for it doesn’t mean it’s a service, it’s added value because that’s how much you want to give to support the community. All of the Patreon money goes toward codex and production for the postcasts. You can use Slack purely to get people to buy your stuff, sure. But that’s how you choose to interact with the community. The actual value is the new way of interacting with the community you want to support.
I just want to say that I’m thoroughly impressed with the courtesy and respect shown by both Jason and Ben as they publicly discussed this issue which is very personal to both of them. They avoided personal attacks, and they really heard each other.
I just want to say that I’m thoroughly impressed with the courtesy and respect shown by both Jason and Ben as they publicly discussed this issue which is very personal to both of them. They avoided personal attacks, and they really heard each other.
I think the venting and the follow up are a shining example of how this kind of thing should be handled. Now, let’s follow this up with how to get more diversity at the table. (Just as a side note… I play face to face exclusively in Houston as part of the Gauntlet that Jason Cordova had a “small part” in making a success. I call it Gauntlet Prime!)
I think the venting and the follow up are a shining example of how this kind of thing should be handled. Now, let’s follow this up with how to get more diversity at the table. (Just as a side note… I play face to face exclusively in Houston as part of the Gauntlet that Jason Cordova had a “small part” in making a success. I call it Gauntlet Prime!)
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One reply and that’s it: Jim Crocker the apology is at the beginning and at the end. That is the opposite of burying it, right? The middle is an explanation of how the first post came about.
One reply and that’s it: Jim Crocker the apology is at the beginning and at the end. That is the opposite of burying it, right? The middle is an explanation of how the first post came about.
Professionalism shouldn’t be synonymous with gatekeeping information about people the community members should be privy to. The knee-jerk reaction of it hurting capital is not necessarily both what should be prioritized, as well as how you should treat people or community– it’s how you make the most amount of money running a business. Not aligned with the overall good of the hobby and the community.
Professionalism shouldn’t be synonymous with gatekeeping information about people the community members should be privy to. The knee-jerk reaction of it hurting capital is not necessarily both what should be prioritized, as well as how you should treat people or community– it’s how you make the most amount of money running a business. Not aligned with the overall good of the hobby and the community.
Fraser Simons That’s really the trick isn’t it? The Gauntlet partly bills itself as a resource and partly as a social forum. One could easily expect more of one than is available.
Me personally, I’m looking for like minded enthusiasts. I’m looking for cool ideas.
I know of slack, but that’s as far as it goes. In any event, patron can be a little muddy as to if you’re simply boosting someone you like or if it’s a bit of collaboration.
And I have a singular talent for making a simple situation seem complicated.
Fraser Simons That’s really the trick isn’t it? The Gauntlet partly bills itself as a resource and partly as a social forum. One could easily expect more of one than is available.
Me personally, I’m looking for like minded enthusiasts. I’m looking for cool ideas.
I know of slack, but that’s as far as it goes. In any event, patron can be a little muddy as to if you’re simply boosting someone you like or if it’s a bit of collaboration.
And I have a singular talent for making a simple situation seem complicated.