Here is my take on spell casting in the Dark Sun setting. I’ll be play testing it with some other Dark Sun material with my home group tomorrow night. Any and all feedback between now and then would be appreciated.
It uses the standard “Cast a spell” entry from the rulebook (page 144) and only adds in the two casting modes. I went this way because I don’t think it’s necessary to spell out setting-specific consequences in the move (except for defiling and preserving) because if we’re doing what we’re supposed to with DW, all of that will come from the setting and fiction anyway. THE thing that makes magic different in Dark Sun is defiling (and less powerful but friendlier preserving) IMO.
Originally shared by Brian Holland
Here is my take on spell casting in the Dark Sun setting. I’ll be play testing it with some other Dark Sun material with my home group tomorrow night. Any and all feedback between now and then would be appreciated.
It uses the standard “Cast a spell” entry from the rulebook (page 144) and only adds in the two casting modes. I went this way because I don’t think it’s necessary to spell out setting-specific consequences in the move (except for defiling and preserving) because if we’re doing what we’re supposed to with DW, all of that will come from the setting and fiction anyway. THE thing that makes magic different in Dark Sun is defiling (and less powerful but friendlier preserving) IMO.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WVn9vyXL8V3b77mBwOXpAEut5KrHzHHCRUPqT2YiktA/edit?usp=sharing
That does seem to capture the feel of Dark Sun succinctly, but the combination of the -1 modifier and the ‘no 10+ results’ for preserving seems very harsh. I would think one or the other would be sufficient to make you think twice before casting; both together would almost guarantee I’d defile on most occasions instead.
That does seem to capture the feel of Dark Sun succinctly, but the combination of the -1 modifier and the ‘no 10+ results’ for preserving seems very harsh. I would think one or the other would be sufficient to make you think twice before casting; both together would almost guarantee I’d defile on most occasions instead.
can you chose to cast normally? or is it one or the other?
I agree that the penalties to Preserve are pretty hard, but maybe is supposed to be that way.
I would suggest that instead of defining a range for the damage when defiling, you just ask for a target. maybe the gm picks on a fail, or it has to be willing/helpless. this will prevent meta gaming were the party just constantly observes a 2 meter bubble around the castor or they always positions themselves for minimal loss and max gain.
can you chose to cast normally? or is it one or the other?
I agree that the penalties to Preserve are pretty hard, but maybe is supposed to be that way.
I would suggest that instead of defining a range for the damage when defiling, you just ask for a target. maybe the gm picks on a fail, or it has to be willing/helpless. this will prevent meta gaming were the party just constantly observes a 2 meter bubble around the castor or they always positions themselves for minimal loss and max gain.
That’s a good point James Mullen! I think I’ll remove the -1 from preserve. Also, combining that with a comment on DW Tavern, what are your thoughts on removing the “+1 to roll” while defiling, and instead it gives a +1 Forward forward on your next Cast a Spell.
That’s a good point James Mullen! I think I’ll remove the -1 from preserve. Also, combining that with a comment on DW Tavern, what are your thoughts on removing the “+1 to roll” while defiling, and instead it gives a +1 Forward forward on your next Cast a Spell.
how about +1 forward on cast a spell if the defile effect deals fatal damage to at least one target.
how about +1 forward on cast a spell if the defile effect deals fatal damage to at least one target.
Just my take on it, and I’ve never played Dark Sun in any form, but the +1 now seems most appropriate: you drain the life-force now and get the boost now, instead of saving it up for later.
Just my take on it, and I’ve never played Dark Sun in any form, but the +1 now seems most appropriate: you drain the life-force now and get the boost now, instead of saving it up for later.
Daniel Fowler, yeah choose Defile or Preserve.
I picked the range because the spell is powered by all of the surrounding life force, not just a source of your choice (making it more dangerous). I think in that setting characters would learn to stay away from the caster, which would put him in more harm! There are no “Clerics” in Dark Sun, so healing is more difficult to come by too.
James Mullen, yeah that was the point of the +1 for defile, because spells are powered by life. But I do agree about removing the -1 to preserve.
Daniel Fowler, yeah choose Defile or Preserve.
I picked the range because the spell is powered by all of the surrounding life force, not just a source of your choice (making it more dangerous). I think in that setting characters would learn to stay away from the caster, which would put him in more harm! There are no “Clerics” in Dark Sun, so healing is more difficult to come by too.
James Mullen, yeah that was the point of the +1 for defile, because spells are powered by life. But I do agree about removing the -1 to preserve.
Daniel Fowler, can you think of a way to still use range but not be as harsh to your allies? I’m thinking maybe “Do damage equal to the spell’s level”, but that doesn’t feel good enough…
Daniel Fowler, can you think of a way to still use range but not be as harsh to your allies? I’m thinking maybe “Do damage equal to the spell’s level”, but that doesn’t feel good enough…
oh, you misunderstand me. I want to force them to do harm to their friends. I want to prevent the party from making the defile penalty worthless. I have seen wizard players quibble with the gm for hours because they want to cast fireball into a hoard of bad guys without the possibility of hurting the barbarian who is fighting in their midst. my philosophy is the fireball is always dangerous, collateral damage should always be a possibility. just be awesome and let the barbarian be awesome by leaping out of the fire like a bad ass.
I have never played Dark sun, but i would require a target for the defile move. ie if there is not something good/ valuable / worth calling a sacrifice in range then your defile magic should fail /not be available. give the player the choice but be prepared to say “try harder” when they try to power game it.
oh, you misunderstand me. I want to force them to do harm to their friends. I want to prevent the party from making the defile penalty worthless. I have seen wizard players quibble with the gm for hours because they want to cast fireball into a hoard of bad guys without the possibility of hurting the barbarian who is fighting in their midst. my philosophy is the fireball is always dangerous, collateral damage should always be a possibility. just be awesome and let the barbarian be awesome by leaping out of the fire like a bad ass.
I have never played Dark sun, but i would require a target for the defile move. ie if there is not something good/ valuable / worth calling a sacrifice in range then your defile magic should fail /not be available. give the player the choice but be prepared to say “try harder” when they try to power game it.
Ahh, gotcha. “If there’s nothing to defile, you can’t use defiler magic”. The caster is already taking damage himself, but maybe ramp up that damage if there is nothing else “in range” to draw upon…
Going with your targeting, (an trying to keep it simple) how about the consumption of vegetation at range still happens (that’s part of the reason why the entire world of Athas is a desert) and choose two targets to each take defiling damage. On a 7-9 the GM can change one target, and on a miss the GM changes both targets.
Maybe “choose one ally and one enemy” instead of “targets”…
Thoughts?
Ahh, gotcha. “If there’s nothing to defile, you can’t use defiler magic”. The caster is already taking damage himself, but maybe ramp up that damage if there is nothing else “in range” to draw upon…
Going with your targeting, (an trying to keep it simple) how about the consumption of vegetation at range still happens (that’s part of the reason why the entire world of Athas is a desert) and choose two targets to each take defiling damage. On a 7-9 the GM can change one target, and on a miss the GM changes both targets.
Maybe “choose one ally and one enemy” instead of “targets”…
Thoughts?
BUT… there may be no “enemies” around when you cast “Detect Magic” or “Dispel Magic”…
BUT… there may be no “enemies” around when you cast “Detect Magic” or “Dispel Magic”…
i would hesitate to even allow a player to chose an enemy (maybe as a result of a 10+/12+) considering that these players are likely going to try to max their INT, they are now casting at +4 and the only penalty they suffer is causing extra damage to their intended victim? even if they always take damage themselves this sounds like an awesome deal. I think its only a penalty/ sacrifice if they loose something they care about or that will cause them problems.
then again if the theme is that being evil/dark is easier (which it often is) then maybe it should be an easy button combat wise. but to be interesting it needs to cause problems for or change the player. sort of like the corruption tables for DCC.
i would hesitate to even allow a player to chose an enemy (maybe as a result of a 10+/12+) considering that these players are likely going to try to max their INT, they are now casting at +4 and the only penalty they suffer is causing extra damage to their intended victim? even if they always take damage themselves this sounds like an awesome deal. I think its only a penalty/ sacrifice if they loose something they care about or that will cause them problems.
then again if the theme is that being evil/dark is easier (which it often is) then maybe it should be an easy button combat wise. but to be interesting it needs to cause problems for or change the player. sort of like the corruption tables for DCC.
as far as the environment is concerned, a ring of dead plants is a cool detail but to be interesting i would add something like : this area is now toxic, the characters can not rest here or take the sick debility if they linger, or someone gets mad and takes notice of the damage.
as far as the environment is concerned, a ring of dead plants is a cool detail but to be interesting i would add something like : this area is now toxic, the characters can not rest here or take the sick debility if they linger, or someone gets mad and takes notice of the damage.
defiling an enemy might also turn out to be a bad thing. maybe if they die as a result then they will rise again as a zombie/abomination. maybe it doesn’t kill them but makes them meaner/corrupted.
defiling an enemy might also turn out to be a bad thing. maybe if they die as a result then they will rise again as a zombie/abomination. maybe it doesn’t kill them but makes them meaner/corrupted.
Yeah I need some more thought on this. I used range because it “gets everyone in range” but maybe I just need to remove the range so that it “gets everyone”.
Re-reading the entry in the 4e Dark Sun book, I see “Fundamental vitality is leeched away: Plants wither, animals and people suffer crippling pain, and the soil at the site of the casting is drained such that nothing will grow in that spot again”.
But then under the Arcane Magic section it’s listed as an optional feature “you can Defile to reroll” (which I don’t like, mainly because I had forgotten about that and thought it just “happened”) but also specifically says “Each ally (willing or unwilling) withing 20 squares …takes damage…”. So the range is there (But that’s a huge range… 120 feet) and it only affects allies.
So I think simply dropping the range, and specifying “you and your allies take damage…” would take care of it. Thoughts?
Yeah I need some more thought on this. I used range because it “gets everyone in range” but maybe I just need to remove the range so that it “gets everyone”.
Re-reading the entry in the 4e Dark Sun book, I see “Fundamental vitality is leeched away: Plants wither, animals and people suffer crippling pain, and the soil at the site of the casting is drained such that nothing will grow in that spot again”.
But then under the Arcane Magic section it’s listed as an optional feature “you can Defile to reroll” (which I don’t like, mainly because I had forgotten about that and thought it just “happened”) but also specifically says “Each ally (willing or unwilling) withing 20 squares …takes damage…”. So the range is there (But that’s a huge range… 120 feet) and it only affects allies.
So I think simply dropping the range, and specifying “you and your allies take damage…” would take care of it. Thoughts?
And also, “crippling pain” could be in the form of a debility… maybe the GM chooses whether to apply the damage or give a debility?
And also, “crippling pain” could be in the form of a debility… maybe the GM chooses whether to apply the damage or give a debility?
sure. sounds like a more appropriate /less likely to be gamed away cost for the benefit.
sure. sounds like a more appropriate /less likely to be gamed away cost for the benefit.
you could also ask players to defy danger with CON to resist the effects. maybe make it a custom move. on a 7-9 pick either to take damage or suffer a debility.
you could also ask players to defy danger with CON to resist the effects. maybe make it a custom move. on a 7-9 pick either to take damage or suffer a debility.
that way you could also have enemy npcs use it against the party
that way you could also have enemy npcs use it against the party
Good Stuff. Thanks Daniel Fowler! Because it’s you and all of your allies instead of only those in range, I reduced the damage to “spell level” instead of “2X spell level”.
Good Stuff. Thanks Daniel Fowler! Because it’s you and all of your allies instead of only those in range, I reduced the damage to “spell level” instead of “2X spell level”.
Thanks Victor Diaz!
Thanks Victor Diaz!
I made a couple more small changes and added a little text to one of the 7-9 options:
The spell disturbs the fabric of reality as it is cast – take -1 ongoing to cast a spell until the next time you prepare spells, or you are unable to Preserve until the next time you prepare spells.
I made a couple more small changes and added a little text to one of the 7-9 options:
The spell disturbs the fabric of reality as it is cast – take -1 ongoing to cast a spell until the next time you prepare spells, or you are unable to Preserve until the next time you prepare spells.
Cool. I guess the preview on the G+ post does not update.
Cool. I guess the preview on the G+ post does not update.
It doesn’t Daniel Fowler. It’s what the document looked like when I first clicked “share” on the doc LOL.
It doesn’t Daniel Fowler. It’s what the document looked like when I first clicked “share” on the doc LOL.
Victor Diaz I’ve seen some of your conversation about it over on that community.
Some of the conversion is easy… No metal means these are your weapons and armor. The Gods are silent means no Clerics or Paladins, but I can add a Psion (still have a lot of work to do on that).
There’s a great section in chapter 5 of the 4e DS book called A Desert Primer, detailing the various types of desert (which I have really enjoyed reading).
The biggest problem (hurdle maybe, not really a problem) is that because DW is so collaborative, I don’t want to be too heavy handed with adapting Dark Sun. I’m working on a small document about “This is what Dark Sun is about” but then I still want to give plenty of space for my players to create world-space inside of those constraints.
To that end, I’m playing with an idea for an introductory scenario that can get as much of that stuff across as possible: A meteor crashes into Athas. In most fiction that’s a really bad thing (aliens, zombies, radiation, etc.) but in Dark Sun I feel like that would be THE known source of metal… something EVERYONE is going to pursue. I would love to hear your thoughts about that!
Victor Diaz I’ve seen some of your conversation about it over on that community.
Some of the conversion is easy… No metal means these are your weapons and armor. The Gods are silent means no Clerics or Paladins, but I can add a Psion (still have a lot of work to do on that).
There’s a great section in chapter 5 of the 4e DS book called A Desert Primer, detailing the various types of desert (which I have really enjoyed reading).
The biggest problem (hurdle maybe, not really a problem) is that because DW is so collaborative, I don’t want to be too heavy handed with adapting Dark Sun. I’m working on a small document about “This is what Dark Sun is about” but then I still want to give plenty of space for my players to create world-space inside of those constraints.
To that end, I’m playing with an idea for an introductory scenario that can get as much of that stuff across as possible: A meteor crashes into Athas. In most fiction that’s a really bad thing (aliens, zombies, radiation, etc.) but in Dark Sun I feel like that would be THE known source of metal… something EVERYONE is going to pursue. I would love to hear your thoughts about that!
Victor, here is a “Discern Realities” style starter I’ll be fleshing out for the scenario. Still very early but it gets some of the central Dark Sun ideas across.
docs.google.com – Dark Sub Dungeon World Adventure Starter
Victor, here is a “Discern Realities” style starter I’ll be fleshing out for the scenario. Still very early but it gets some of the central Dark Sun ideas across.
docs.google.com – Dark Sub Dungeon World Adventure Starter