Gamers! Talk to me about the revenge seeker/avenger trope in gaming. The one who’s lost their partner/child/sibling/etc and must now have that as their prime motivating force. Do you like it? Have you played it? What makes it interesting and what makes it boring?
Gamers!
Gamers!
Listening
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Not a big fan myself. A character designed off this trope tends to be single focused which doesn’t interact with other threads. When revenge is then resolved, the character’s left with no internal motivations which is close to unplayable. Now this isn’t always the case, but it sure feels that way. The closest I can think of playing myself is a Lady Blackbird game where I played Cyrus as having an unsettled past with Uriah Flint, but he wasn’t planning on settling up until Blackbird reveal that’s where they were going (to which he got needlessly drunk and said even more hurtful things to her). Now characters who in the course of play having something occur that makes them seek vengeance, that’s great
Not a big fan myself. A character designed off this trope tends to be single focused which doesn’t interact with other threads. When revenge is then resolved, the character’s left with no internal motivations which is close to unplayable. Now this isn’t always the case, but it sure feels that way. The closest I can think of playing myself is a Lady Blackbird game where I played Cyrus as having an unsettled past with Uriah Flint, but he wasn’t planning on settling up until Blackbird reveal that’s where they were going (to which he got needlessly drunk and said even more hurtful things to her). Now characters who in the course of play having something occur that makes them seek vengeance, that’s great
I have seen it a lot, and it’s usually boring as hell, but I also think it depends on the context. In a fantasy game, or something like Monster of the Week, which can be kind of gonzo, things are already very unrealistic and so tropes are more tolerable. I think the character driven solely by a desire for revenge is more enjoyable when tropes are part of what we’re there to do. For example, in a series of Dungeon World I played earlier this year, Vincent Quigley played a terrific Inigo Montoya-style sword fighter out to avenge his lady love, and it was enjoyable because the way he played up the trope was part of the fun. It was never comedic, but it was so “fantasy-serious” that it made you smile.
In a more realistic setting, I find the revenge story less interesting (and almost entirely unbelievable). In our modern world, you can’t just go around John Wick-ing everything. Life is more complicated than that, our emotions are more complicated than that.
So, yeah, context is the answer for me.
I have seen it a lot, and it’s usually boring as hell, but I also think it depends on the context. In a fantasy game, or something like Monster of the Week, which can be kind of gonzo, things are already very unrealistic and so tropes are more tolerable. I think the character driven solely by a desire for revenge is more enjoyable when tropes are part of what we’re there to do. For example, in a series of Dungeon World I played earlier this year, Vincent Quigley played a terrific Inigo Montoya-style sword fighter out to avenge his lady love, and it was enjoyable because the way he played up the trope was part of the fun. It was never comedic, but it was so “fantasy-serious” that it made you smile.
In a more realistic setting, I find the revenge story less interesting (and almost entirely unbelievable). In our modern world, you can’t just go around John Wick-ing everything. Life is more complicated than that, our emotions are more complicated than that.
So, yeah, context is the answer for me.
I roll my eyes at it in games. But! I think it’s a very umm… I guess masculine instinct? Most men with families I know understand it. There’s that famous line from Snow Crash:
Until a man is twenty-five, he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the baddest motherfucker in the world. If I moved to a martial-arts monastery in China and studied real hard for ten years. If my family was wiped out by Colombian drug dealers and I swore myself to revenge. If I got a fatal disease, had one year to live, and devoted it to wiping out street crime. If I just dropped out and devoted my life to being bad.
Not sure I have anything more to really say, but
I roll my eyes at it in games. But! I think it’s a very umm… I guess masculine instinct? Most men with families I know understand it. There’s that famous line from Snow Crash:
Until a man is twenty-five, he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the baddest motherfucker in the world. If I moved to a martial-arts monastery in China and studied real hard for ten years. If my family was wiped out by Colombian drug dealers and I swore myself to revenge. If I got a fatal disease, had one year to live, and devoted it to wiping out street crime. If I just dropped out and devoted my life to being bad.
Not sure I have anything more to really say, but
Or mentor/figure of faith/village/sovereign, yeah… there’s a thing in the Elizabethan revenge tragedy that doesn’t often show up in RPGs when the trope comes into play, which is the monomania about the object of revenge. The “tragedy” of the revenge tragedy comes in the blindness of the protagonist toward all else. That… is problematic for other people in a game if it’s successfully executed in RP.. And if the “revenge” is directed toward a category/species/race/monster-type/what-have-you, it tends to lead the game in a very specific direction.
Revenger/Avenger, in my experience in gaming, is either pointless or overwhelming.
Or mentor/figure of faith/village/sovereign, yeah… there’s a thing in the Elizabethan revenge tragedy that doesn’t often show up in RPGs when the trope comes into play, which is the monomania about the object of revenge. The “tragedy” of the revenge tragedy comes in the blindness of the protagonist toward all else. That… is problematic for other people in a game if it’s successfully executed in RP.. And if the “revenge” is directed toward a category/species/race/monster-type/what-have-you, it tends to lead the game in a very specific direction.
Revenger/Avenger, in my experience in gaming, is either pointless or overwhelming.
I recently watched John Wick, which is a very good version of this trope because of how it positions the Avenger and their interrupted attempt to grieve.
There’s very little mechanically in most games that support it as an interesting character point.
The big issue with it is that it’s usually the defining quality of a lone wolf character, and that’s mostly disruptive in traditional RPG models. The revenge fantasy is a power fantasy, and any failure in enacting a characters revenge often feels so incongruous that it usually breaks the players investment. The Avenger is often so single-minded and driven that anything other than seeking vengeance is out of the question for them, or they feel disingenuous.
Games where the players aren’t necessarily allies or a party, it could be more valuable. A revenge-driven Gunlugger in Apocalypse World, or the right playbook for Fiasco (although Fiasco demands a level of over your head panic that doesn’t lend itself to the fantasy) A Fiasco game where you’re a gang or crime syndicate, and the avenger is coming for you, that could be interesting.
A good point of tension is could be the Avenger pushing down their grief, and instead of facing it, they want to go on a murder spree, but another PC is trying to help them face their grief and regain their humanity. There’s good tension there, if the game supports it, and isn’t totally focused on combat.
Another aspect of this is the tension between fair justice and pure revenge. A character teetering on the edge between the two, with other characters pulling at them one way or the other, that could be rewarding.
I recently watched John Wick, which is a very good version of this trope because of how it positions the Avenger and their interrupted attempt to grieve.
There’s very little mechanically in most games that support it as an interesting character point.
The big issue with it is that it’s usually the defining quality of a lone wolf character, and that’s mostly disruptive in traditional RPG models. The revenge fantasy is a power fantasy, and any failure in enacting a characters revenge often feels so incongruous that it usually breaks the players investment. The Avenger is often so single-minded and driven that anything other than seeking vengeance is out of the question for them, or they feel disingenuous.
Games where the players aren’t necessarily allies or a party, it could be more valuable. A revenge-driven Gunlugger in Apocalypse World, or the right playbook for Fiasco (although Fiasco demands a level of over your head panic that doesn’t lend itself to the fantasy) A Fiasco game where you’re a gang or crime syndicate, and the avenger is coming for you, that could be interesting.
A good point of tension is could be the Avenger pushing down their grief, and instead of facing it, they want to go on a murder spree, but another PC is trying to help them face their grief and regain their humanity. There’s good tension there, if the game supports it, and isn’t totally focused on combat.
Another aspect of this is the tension between fair justice and pure revenge. A character teetering on the edge between the two, with other characters pulling at them one way or the other, that could be rewarding.
i mean one time i played a minotaur who wanted to kill the dwarf who killed her father, then she did, then she killed some goblins.
i mean one time i played a minotaur who wanted to kill the dwarf who killed her father, then she did, then she killed some goblins.
Everyone seems to be talking about how the trope doesn’t work, and yet they also seem to be implicitly assuming that the killings happen offscreen, in a character backstory. Of course that’s boring. It’s boring in passive media too, which is why every revenge story that works shows us who the protagonist was before they swore vengeance. I’ve played characters who want vengeance before, and it’s worked out really well. But that’s because the reason they set out on their mad quest was something that happened in the game, to NPCs (or even PCs) the other players cared about.
When the other players at the table have a reason to join in on – or oppose – the act of revenge, it can absolutely work. The real problem is that the player has confined the defining moment of their character’s life to a prewritten backstory.
Everyone seems to be talking about how the trope doesn’t work, and yet they also seem to be implicitly assuming that the killings happen offscreen, in a character backstory. Of course that’s boring. It’s boring in passive media too, which is why every revenge story that works shows us who the protagonist was before they swore vengeance. I’ve played characters who want vengeance before, and it’s worked out really well. But that’s because the reason they set out on their mad quest was something that happened in the game, to NPCs (or even PCs) the other players cared about.
When the other players at the table have a reason to join in on – or oppose – the act of revenge, it can absolutely work. The real problem is that the player has confined the defining moment of their character’s life to a prewritten backstory.
As far as a trope, it is classic and can work well. Personally, I find it limiting and kind of boring. I have played a vengeance seeker, but it was played as a redemption story. So the point was to move past it. Using it would depend on the color of the game. Something tight like Night Witches, it could be a strong concept and the exploration could have big, exciting moments. Something broader like DW or a supers game, I could see it getting thin.
Ultimately, it should probably be a facet of a more complex character concept. A one dimensional character is kinda dull, no matter how storied the trope.
As far as a trope, it is classic and can work well. Personally, I find it limiting and kind of boring. I have played a vengeance seeker, but it was played as a redemption story. So the point was to move past it. Using it would depend on the color of the game. Something tight like Night Witches, it could be a strong concept and the exploration could have big, exciting moments. Something broader like DW or a supers game, I could see it getting thin.
Ultimately, it should probably be a facet of a more complex character concept. A one dimensional character is kinda dull, no matter how storied the trope.
I think to be played well it needs to be a bit tropey and on the nose.
However, as with any tropes it’s interesting to subvert it.
What happens when you realize that the hitman that killed you family is actually a family man himself and that he did that because he was trying (in a weird and misdirected way) to provide for his family.
I think Park Chan-wook Vengeance trilogy ( Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance (2002), Oldboy (2003), and Lady Vengeance (2005) ) is a nice ( but super gory) example of that in movies.
I think to be played well it needs to be a bit tropey and on the nose.
However, as with any tropes it’s interesting to subvert it.
What happens when you realize that the hitman that killed you family is actually a family man himself and that he did that because he was trying (in a weird and misdirected way) to provide for his family.
I think Park Chan-wook Vengeance trilogy ( Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance (2002), Oldboy (2003), and Lady Vengeance (2005) ) is a nice ( but super gory) example of that in movies.
I can think of times I have done some seeker avenger ish for a character. However I wouldn’t describe them using that trope because it was more complex than “serving justiceeeeeee/revenges”.
I would add self doubt in heaps (weighing what they want vs. What I think I need ((which Iam umcertain about))), I would add an overwillingness to trust and make allies (which could get ya burned quick, but if you doubt yourself too much you need people to confirm ideas for you, people who say your right to do XYZ).
I’d also add something that essentially is to the degree of unrelated “make me human again” obsession. Such as insisting on creating a scrapbook of good memories which has to do woth Adventures now (that way later the scrapbook can be put in danger, lost, or a prop in an interparty conflict which could trigger a meltdown or a breakthrough).
I essentially would make an emotional mess, a character that is in prolonged shock and just trying to cope. Not really a vigilante or justice carrier person.
I can think of times I have done some seeker avenger ish for a character. However I wouldn’t describe them using that trope because it was more complex than “serving justiceeeeeee/revenges”.
I would add self doubt in heaps (weighing what they want vs. What I think I need ((which Iam umcertain about))), I would add an overwillingness to trust and make allies (which could get ya burned quick, but if you doubt yourself too much you need people to confirm ideas for you, people who say your right to do XYZ).
I’d also add something that essentially is to the degree of unrelated “make me human again” obsession. Such as insisting on creating a scrapbook of good memories which has to do woth Adventures now (that way later the scrapbook can be put in danger, lost, or a prop in an interparty conflict which could trigger a meltdown or a breakthrough).
I essentially would make an emotional mess, a character that is in prolonged shock and just trying to cope. Not really a vigilante or justice carrier person.
So, this trope is a case of static vs dynamic characters. The revenge seeker isn’t going to grow as a person through role play (unless they can be convinced that single-minded revenge is not the best way). A dynamic character interests us as participants because it changes, we watch it grow, it becomes a deeper more real person to us. A static character like the revenge seeker could be played by a subroutine its responses to role play are so predictable.
My take is that in the hands of the right player it could be interesting, but most people play it along the Taken / John Wick lines and just careen unveeringly towards their goal.
And that’s another thing, Inigo. What ARE you going to do once you murder Count Roogan and avenge the death of your father? Well, unless the game conveniently ends when you achieve your goal, your character just got a whole lot more boring to play. Maybe try starting the revenge character just after they’ve gotten their revenge and they’re casting about for a purpose in life. That’s a much more compelling character.
So, this trope is a case of static vs dynamic characters. The revenge seeker isn’t going to grow as a person through role play (unless they can be convinced that single-minded revenge is not the best way). A dynamic character interests us as participants because it changes, we watch it grow, it becomes a deeper more real person to us. A static character like the revenge seeker could be played by a subroutine its responses to role play are so predictable.
My take is that in the hands of the right player it could be interesting, but most people play it along the Taken / John Wick lines and just careen unveeringly towards their goal.
And that’s another thing, Inigo. What ARE you going to do once you murder Count Roogan and avenge the death of your father? Well, unless the game conveniently ends when you achieve your goal, your character just got a whole lot more boring to play. Maybe try starting the revenge character just after they’ve gotten their revenge and they’re casting about for a purpose in life. That’s a much more compelling character.
Adrian Thoen Something you said reminds me: when you see a trope that you feel is played out, turn it upside down or inside out. The idea of the Avenger hunting one or all of the party seems like a really great one to me, especially since… ain’t no party like a D&D party ’cause a D&D party don’t stop till everything worth XP is dead.
Adrian Thoen Something you said reminds me: when you see a trope that you feel is played out, turn it upside down or inside out. The idea of the Avenger hunting one or all of the party seems like a really great one to me, especially since… ain’t no party like a D&D party ’cause a D&D party don’t stop till everything worth XP is dead.
I go back to literature/drama. How well did it work out for Hamlet or Medea? How cool would it be to play side characters in those dramas, in an RPG/Story Game/Undefined category of that thing we do? If there’s no shared understanding, if the PCs don’t have a common thread to the loss, or if the “avenging” character hasn’t made their case in a way that resonates… with at least the majority of everyone involved, then… Unless the revenger finds common goals… (leaving that with the ellipsis)
I go back to literature/drama. How well did it work out for Hamlet or Medea? How cool would it be to play side characters in those dramas, in an RPG/Story Game/Undefined category of that thing we do? If there’s no shared understanding, if the PCs don’t have a common thread to the loss, or if the “avenging” character hasn’t made their case in a way that resonates… with at least the majority of everyone involved, then… Unless the revenger finds common goals… (leaving that with the ellipsis)
Jason Cordova “John Wick-ing”
Jason Cordova “John Wick-ing”
there is a lot of room for exploration in the revenge story. It is there if it’s embraced. Just think if you wanted revenge for something, how complicated that would make your life.
If it’s not part of the ingame narrative [but is a backstory of the character], even if it only shows up in the npc-player dialogue, then I think this difference seems to distance the character from the narrative… “My character is Barbarian Druid, they are seeking vengeance for their loved one’s death [Are saying they have a single-minded obsession that keeps them awake at night and aches at their heart with every breath to exact revenge on the skeletons that destroyed their village and everyone they knew, there is a feeling of failure and loss constantly on their conscience?!] they also have 50ft of silk rope…”
poor batman was always seeking revenge that could never be satiated, which I think is how it is for most people in real life seeking revenge, a game could be a chance to play that motivation out. with out revenge (or atonement) Samurai films would be few, Many romantic dramas would be much happier, and Coyote and Roadrunner would be friends. Most, maybe all, cultures have a form of honor vengeance entrenched. what is more tragic than an avenger utterly failing (especially one with a just cause), only perhaps them succeeding effortlessly.
the idea of a character or party being the object of an avenger as mentioned previously is intriguing.
there is a lot of room for exploration in the revenge story. It is there if it’s embraced. Just think if you wanted revenge for something, how complicated that would make your life.
If it’s not part of the ingame narrative [but is a backstory of the character], even if it only shows up in the npc-player dialogue, then I think this difference seems to distance the character from the narrative… “My character is Barbarian Druid, they are seeking vengeance for their loved one’s death [Are saying they have a single-minded obsession that keeps them awake at night and aches at their heart with every breath to exact revenge on the skeletons that destroyed their village and everyone they knew, there is a feeling of failure and loss constantly on their conscience?!] they also have 50ft of silk rope…”
poor batman was always seeking revenge that could never be satiated, which I think is how it is for most people in real life seeking revenge, a game could be a chance to play that motivation out. with out revenge (or atonement) Samurai films would be few, Many romantic dramas would be much happier, and Coyote and Roadrunner would be friends. Most, maybe all, cultures have a form of honor vengeance entrenched. what is more tragic than an avenger utterly failing (especially one with a just cause), only perhaps them succeeding effortlessly.
the idea of a character or party being the object of an avenger as mentioned previously is intriguing.
On the other hand, it’s GREAT motivation for an NPC.
On the other hand, it’s GREAT motivation for an NPC.
This tropes biggest problem is that it is over used. Consume any media these days and the main protagonist has a refrigerator GF or a Uncle Ben. Aprently you can’t have a motivation with out a dead loved one.
Even Tony Starks dad was ret-conned to be Uncle Benned in that one Captain America movie.
This tropes biggest problem is that it is over used. Consume any media these days and the main protagonist has a refrigerator GF or a Uncle Ben. Aprently you can’t have a motivation with out a dead loved one.
Even Tony Starks dad was ret-conned to be Uncle Benned in that one Captain America movie.
Cuchulain Coker Sorry to go full-on comic book nerd on you, but I have to disagree about Batman, though he’s certainly been written the way you describe quite often. What makes Batman an admirable character instead of a despicable one (on a metaphorical level, anyway) is that he feels vengeful, but does not seek vengeance. Instead, he uses his rage to drive his dedication to the impossible ideal of a world where no one else has to experience what he experienced. Batman is a machine designed by Bruce Wayne to render Batman redundant, even as said machine’s continued operation slowly consumes him.
This is why Robin is vital to the Batman mythos – without Robin, Batman is just a crazy dude in fetish wear beating up crooks for kicks. He’s the Punisher without the killing, and that’s boring. With Robin, we see Batman having a measurable positive impact on the world, because Dick Grayson goes through a similar tragedy and doesn’t become a Lil’ Grim Avenger Of The Night. He gets to crack wise and run around in bright colors and generally enjoy his life, and he becomes a reasonably well-adjusted adult. Robin brings out the best in Batman and vice versa.
To tie this extremely nerdy little digression back into the topic, my point about Robin applies to any relationship between PCs in PbtA games and their antecedents, and perhaps to all RPGs: the ideal group of PCs is one where every member of that group brings out something unique and awesome in every other member of the group. If one player wants to be Batman, there should be another player willing to strap on little green pixie boots, y’know?
…No, that wasn’t a tenuous attempt to make it look as though I had a relevant point, why would that be the SHUT UP
Cuchulain Coker Sorry to go full-on comic book nerd on you, but I have to disagree about Batman, though he’s certainly been written the way you describe quite often. What makes Batman an admirable character instead of a despicable one (on a metaphorical level, anyway) is that he feels vengeful, but does not seek vengeance. Instead, he uses his rage to drive his dedication to the impossible ideal of a world where no one else has to experience what he experienced. Batman is a machine designed by Bruce Wayne to render Batman redundant, even as said machine’s continued operation slowly consumes him.
This is why Robin is vital to the Batman mythos – without Robin, Batman is just a crazy dude in fetish wear beating up crooks for kicks. He’s the Punisher without the killing, and that’s boring. With Robin, we see Batman having a measurable positive impact on the world, because Dick Grayson goes through a similar tragedy and doesn’t become a Lil’ Grim Avenger Of The Night. He gets to crack wise and run around in bright colors and generally enjoy his life, and he becomes a reasonably well-adjusted adult. Robin brings out the best in Batman and vice versa.
To tie this extremely nerdy little digression back into the topic, my point about Robin applies to any relationship between PCs in PbtA games and their antecedents, and perhaps to all RPGs: the ideal group of PCs is one where every member of that group brings out something unique and awesome in every other member of the group. If one player wants to be Batman, there should be another player willing to strap on little green pixie boots, y’know?
…No, that wasn’t a tenuous attempt to make it look as though I had a relevant point, why would that be the SHUT UP
I was waiting to be pulled up about Batman 😁, I agree with you completely. I guess I just meant what if he could get complete revenge and atonement in one action, what would that look like, and would he do it? Which there are different versions of (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Chill) I guess I’m pretty Batman ignorant and should not have used an example like that, sorry. I agree he is trying to make it so others don’t experience the same trauma he did. And then there’s Nightwing, and all the differences between golden age Batman and contemporary.
I really liked this question It got me thinking about something I never really thought of before. I personally don’t relate much to the modern trope character that is on a killing spree in the name of vengeance (or justice), but who clearly enjoys the killing part more than the revenge part, they usually come across as an indiscriminate killer to me with no greater direction (I do know a lot of people that love those characters – maybe I’m missing something) I’ve always been more interested in motivation, and I love in fiction when really vile villains get their just desserts, because I feel i can relax knowing that problem has been solved. I guess what I’ve learned in reading this post and the comments is that I personally find any uncovering of the layers of this trope very interesting, and when they are left untouched or unexplained then I’m not connecting with it. If I encounter it in a game again I’m planning on peeling back some layers, whether I’m a player, co-player or running a game, and if I am running it that party is going to be entangled in a complicated scenario with a very bitter vengeful singleminded antagonist.
1 more thing: when I was in 3rd grade I got in a fight with someone from school and for 6 months I brewed on it and envisioned a rematch and my ultimate revenge. Then my family needed to move interstate. The only person who gave me a going away present was that boy, a nice present too, I guess he hadn’t thought twice about our ‘fight’. 6 months of maintaining a one-sided feud for nothing.
And I think that’s pretty much all my brain has to share. I do not claim any of it is correct, it is 100% opinion.
Thank you, it’s been really interesting reading what everyone has said. apologies for any excess of words. Guess it just sparked something in me.
I was waiting to be pulled up about Batman 😁, I agree with you completely. I guess I just meant what if he could get complete revenge and atonement in one action, what would that look like, and would he do it? Which there are different versions of (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Chill) I guess I’m pretty Batman ignorant and should not have used an example like that, sorry. I agree he is trying to make it so others don’t experience the same trauma he did. And then there’s Nightwing, and all the differences between golden age Batman and contemporary.
I really liked this question It got me thinking about something I never really thought of before. I personally don’t relate much to the modern trope character that is on a killing spree in the name of vengeance (or justice), but who clearly enjoys the killing part more than the revenge part, they usually come across as an indiscriminate killer to me with no greater direction (I do know a lot of people that love those characters – maybe I’m missing something) I’ve always been more interested in motivation, and I love in fiction when really vile villains get their just desserts, because I feel i can relax knowing that problem has been solved. I guess what I’ve learned in reading this post and the comments is that I personally find any uncovering of the layers of this trope very interesting, and when they are left untouched or unexplained then I’m not connecting with it. If I encounter it in a game again I’m planning on peeling back some layers, whether I’m a player, co-player or running a game, and if I am running it that party is going to be entangled in a complicated scenario with a very bitter vengeful singleminded antagonist.
1 more thing: when I was in 3rd grade I got in a fight with someone from school and for 6 months I brewed on it and envisioned a rematch and my ultimate revenge. Then my family needed to move interstate. The only person who gave me a going away present was that boy, a nice present too, I guess he hadn’t thought twice about our ‘fight’. 6 months of maintaining a one-sided feud for nothing.
And I think that’s pretty much all my brain has to share. I do not claim any of it is correct, it is 100% opinion.
Thank you, it’s been really interesting reading what everyone has said. apologies for any excess of words. Guess it just sparked something in me.
Funny thing, I read a lot about revenge being boring, but also most of the vengeance descriptions stopped in murder. IMHO, the wider the scope the more interesting it gets.
The scope can be on the object of your vengeance: the killer of your family? Nope; everyone from the killer’s nationality/religion/ethnic group/etc…
And the breadth of the revenge is how far you will go for that: murder the killer of your family? Nope; destroy their families, burn their lands, cripple their faith, salt their wounds.
but i never played a game that incorporated that wel in its engine.
Funny thing, I read a lot about revenge being boring, but also most of the vengeance descriptions stopped in murder. IMHO, the wider the scope the more interesting it gets.
The scope can be on the object of your vengeance: the killer of your family? Nope; everyone from the killer’s nationality/religion/ethnic group/etc…
And the breadth of the revenge is how far you will go for that: murder the killer of your family? Nope; destroy their families, burn their lands, cripple their faith, salt their wounds.
but i never played a game that incorporated that wel in its engine.