I asked about this over on the Tavern, but haven’t gotten much in the way of feedback. So I figured I would ask it here too.
Saturday night I had a Channeler in my game (my wife) use Summon Elemental. When it got loose it started attacking willy-nilly. She finally had the idea to use Bender of the Elements to make the elemental move out a window, after which it flew off on its own. My main question is, has anyone else used Bender of the Elements to “control” an elemental that has gotten out of control? It seemed to be reasonable through the wording, but I wanted other peoples’ opinions on the matter.
I’m not familiar with that playbook. We pretty much stick to the core classes in my games.
I’m not familiar with that playbook. We pretty much stick to the core classes in my games.
If this is indeed the Channeler from Grim World, than I could see an argument for using Bender of the Elements. If you were playing in Grim World (it sounds like you’re playing Dungeon World with extra playbooks) I would make the consequences harder.
If this is indeed the Channeler from Grim World, than I could see an argument for using Bender of the Elements. If you were playing in Grim World (it sounds like you’re playing Dungeon World with extra playbooks) I would make the consequences harder.
Michael G. Barford yeah, pretty much just using the classes for Dungeon World.
Jason Cordova here is the actual text of the move:
Bender of the Elements
Your control over your primary element extends beyond your body. When you manipulate something in the nearby environment made of your primary element, roll+CON. ✴On a 10+, hold 3. ✴On a 7-9, hold 1. So long as you do nothing but concentrate on controlling it, you may spend hold, 1 for 1, to choose an option:
• It does 1d6 damage to something
• It has the Forceful tag
• It moves to a new position within sight
• It holds a particular shape (even after you stop concentrating)
Michael G. Barford yeah, pretty much just using the classes for Dungeon World.
Jason Cordova here is the actual text of the move:
Bender of the Elements
Your control over your primary element extends beyond your body. When you manipulate something in the nearby environment made of your primary element, roll+CON. ✴On a 10+, hold 3. ✴On a 7-9, hold 1. So long as you do nothing but concentrate on controlling it, you may spend hold, 1 for 1, to choose an option:
• It does 1d6 damage to something
• It has the Forceful tag
• It moves to a new position within sight
• It holds a particular shape (even after you stop concentrating)
I don’t think there is a right or wrong choice about if that move can be used that way. Personally, I would have said that the elemental could exert more control over its own body than the Channeller could override. But really (and this is one of Dungeon World’s flaws), possibilities of what one move can do may depend on what other moves are available. For example, there are definitely moves that allow you to control elementals, which implies that if you don’t have those moves, you can’t. And, if you twist a move to do so, you are intruding on the niche of someone else.
This leads to weird places, though. For example, one of the playbooks (Thief, maybe?) has a move about throwing improvised objects. This move is terrible, as it suggests that others can’t do that (or can’t do it as well, somehow?).
I don’t think there is a right or wrong choice about if that move can be used that way. Personally, I would have said that the elemental could exert more control over its own body than the Channeller could override. But really (and this is one of Dungeon World’s flaws), possibilities of what one move can do may depend on what other moves are available. For example, there are definitely moves that allow you to control elementals, which implies that if you don’t have those moves, you can’t. And, if you twist a move to do so, you are intruding on the niche of someone else.
This leads to weird places, though. For example, one of the playbooks (Thief, maybe?) has a move about throwing improvised objects. This move is terrible, as it suggests that others can’t do that (or can’t do it as well, somehow?).
I’m going to have to disagree with some of your points, Lester Ward. I think you may be reading the text a little too strictly. Just because the Thief has a move called “Backstab” doesn’t mean that other classes can only stab people in the front and sides.
I’m going to have to disagree with some of your points, Lester Ward. I think you may be reading the text a little too strictly. Just because the Thief has a move called “Backstab” doesn’t mean that other classes can only stab people in the front and sides.
I’d certainly make the player roll for it because it seems like it can work given the flavor of the class. Since the class has an appropriate move, I’d rule that they trigger that move instead of the usual Defy Danger.
The reason the moves have “when you do X” is so that they trigger when you do something in the fiction. I generally go with the most narrowly applicable move and go from there. To pick on the thief, anyone can search for traps and disarm them, but they’d end up triggering the much less specific–and much more dangerous–Discern Realities and Defy Danger combo. If you have a shapeshifter compendium class with a move “when you tear into an enemy using your teeth and claws” that’d replace the hack and slash when they’re using their teeth and claws (or try to rip someone’s arm off, perhaps).
I’d certainly make the player roll for it because it seems like it can work given the flavor of the class. Since the class has an appropriate move, I’d rule that they trigger that move instead of the usual Defy Danger.
The reason the moves have “when you do X” is so that they trigger when you do something in the fiction. I generally go with the most narrowly applicable move and go from there. To pick on the thief, anyone can search for traps and disarm them, but they’d end up triggering the much less specific–and much more dangerous–Discern Realities and Defy Danger combo. If you have a shapeshifter compendium class with a move “when you tear into an enemy using your teeth and claws” that’d replace the hack and slash when they’re using their teeth and claws (or try to rip someone’s arm off, perhaps).
A specific example is when my Immolator wanted to hamstring a monster pinned by our Barbarian. Since I intended to use their fire powers to burn the tendon off, Jason Cordova let me use the Hand Crafted move instead of Aid/Interfere.
Our Barbarian now had a fictional (not merely a numbers) advantage over the monster. There was also a side bonus that the tendon made a sickening POP sound.
A specific example is when my Immolator wanted to hamstring a monster pinned by our Barbarian. Since I intended to use their fire powers to burn the tendon off, Jason Cordova let me use the Hand Crafted move instead of Aid/Interfere.
Our Barbarian now had a fictional (not merely a numbers) advantage over the monster. There was also a side bonus that the tendon made a sickening POP sound.
Michael G. Barford, your Backstab example isn’t using the move the same way I’m talking about. As you say, anyone can stab somebody in the back. What I am saying is that because the Backstab move exists as a Theif specific move, the implication is that when someone who isn’t a thief “attacks a surprised or defenseless enemy with a melee weapon”, they do not get the same choices that the thief does.
Michael G. Barford, your Backstab example isn’t using the move the same way I’m talking about. As you say, anyone can stab somebody in the back. What I am saying is that because the Backstab move exists as a Theif specific move, the implication is that when someone who isn’t a thief “attacks a surprised or defenseless enemy with a melee weapon”, they do not get the same choices that the thief does.
I think the improvised throwing weapon move is a bad one because it just handles it in Volley, which is how I think it would be handled by any other character (unless the text specifically says you can only use thrown or ranged weapons for that move). It’s not like Backstab or Trap Expert, which gives the Thief the benefit of more predictable outcomes (over the likely Defy Danger that would trigger for non-Thiefs).
I think the improvised throwing weapon move is a bad one because it just handles it in Volley, which is how I think it would be handled by any other character (unless the text specifically says you can only use thrown or ranged weapons for that move). It’s not like Backstab or Trap Expert, which gives the Thief the benefit of more predictable outcomes (over the likely Defy Danger that would trigger for non-Thiefs).
To bring this back around to my original point. The original question is basically asking “can move X do Y” (e.g. “can Bender of the Elements be used to control elementals”). When trying to answer this sort of question, my point is that it is often not sufficient to look solely at move X. There is a broader move ecosystem, and its possible that “to do Y” is the sole purpose of other moves. Without paying attention to this, you can accidentally harsh other’s fun, make other characters less important, etc.
To bring this back around to my original point. The original question is basically asking “can move X do Y” (e.g. “can Bender of the Elements be used to control elementals”). When trying to answer this sort of question, my point is that it is often not sufficient to look solely at move X. There is a broader move ecosystem, and its possible that “to do Y” is the sole purpose of other moves. Without paying attention to this, you can accidentally harsh other’s fun, make other characters less important, etc.
Scott Selvidge, my first reaction to the fictional scenario you outlined – if I was that elemental and someone was controlling me; as soon as the control ended I’d be coming after them – instead of flying away. So now your character got some short term benefit by controlling the elemental – but uh oh, now it’s pissed at you…
Your hold has run out…
What do you do?
Scott Selvidge, my first reaction to the fictional scenario you outlined – if I was that elemental and someone was controlling me; as soon as the control ended I’d be coming after them – instead of flying away. So now your character got some short term benefit by controlling the elemental – but uh oh, now it’s pissed at you…
Your hold has run out…
What do you do?
Scott Selvidge I certainly wouldn’t let a PC marionette a (semi)sentient being. However, I fail to see the difference between this and using another move to temporarily remove a an NPC. Bribing, wrestling, knockout-poison, or whatever.
I guess if a fellow adventurer bribed my hireling from under my influence out of the blue, I’d be pretty annoyed. However, if they had a bond/flag/alignment that they were hitting, that’d be more OK. If they kept doing that, we’d have problems.
Just because a move can be abused doesn’t mean we shouldn’t allow it. Say, using Interfere to cut off a teammate speaking. That can be a real dick move, but it can make sense in context. Say, the Barbarian is feeling a little twitchy and wants to start a fight with the city guard, interfering with that makes total sense and probably protects the movement of plot. However, using it to cut a teammate out of negotiations with an NPC would be pretty uncool.
Scott Selvidge I certainly wouldn’t let a PC marionette a (semi)sentient being. However, I fail to see the difference between this and using another move to temporarily remove a an NPC. Bribing, wrestling, knockout-poison, or whatever.
I guess if a fellow adventurer bribed my hireling from under my influence out of the blue, I’d be pretty annoyed. However, if they had a bond/flag/alignment that they were hitting, that’d be more OK. If they kept doing that, we’d have problems.
Just because a move can be abused doesn’t mean we shouldn’t allow it. Say, using Interfere to cut off a teammate speaking. That can be a real dick move, but it can make sense in context. Say, the Barbarian is feeling a little twitchy and wants to start a fight with the city guard, interfering with that makes total sense and probably protects the movement of plot. However, using it to cut a teammate out of negotiations with an NPC would be pretty uncool.
I appreciate all of your input! I have taken everything into consideration.
Since the elemental was her’s to begin with, and because I am a fan of her character, I think I will let her use the Bender move to manipulate any elementals she loses control of (with harsh consequences on failures) in the future. After all, that is what a Channeler is meant to do, control their element. Thats literally their one gimmick. In the case of the elemental flying away, don’t assume that it was a soft move against her. It was sent as far away as she could see out the window. The elemental is now angry and left to its own whims in a world that is ill-suited to defend itself against living lightning. She’ll be hearing about the beast she let loose in the next session for sure. 🙂
I appreciate all of your input! I have taken everything into consideration.
Since the elemental was her’s to begin with, and because I am a fan of her character, I think I will let her use the Bender move to manipulate any elementals she loses control of (with harsh consequences on failures) in the future. After all, that is what a Channeler is meant to do, control their element. Thats literally their one gimmick. In the case of the elemental flying away, don’t assume that it was a soft move against her. It was sent as far away as she could see out the window. The elemental is now angry and left to its own whims in a world that is ill-suited to defend itself against living lightning. She’ll be hearing about the beast she let loose in the next session for sure. 🙂
Bending an angry elemental seems like a tiger by the tail situation. Better keep it up.
Bending an angry elemental seems like a tiger by the tail situation. Better keep it up.
Joshua Faller Yeah she gave me a good opportunity by sending it as far away as she could see. I could have made it come back, but it was way more interesting to let it run wild in the unsuspecting countryside 🙂
Joshua Faller Yeah she gave me a good opportunity by sending it as far away as she could see. I could have made it come back, but it was way more interesting to let it run wild in the unsuspecting countryside 🙂
That sounds like grim portents territory. Huh- I wonder what could have burned down this orphanage?
That sounds like grim portents territory. Huh- I wonder what could have burned down this orphanage?