Chase away your election blues with Episode 34 of Discern Realities!

Chase away your election blues with Episode 34 of Discern Realities!

Chase away your election blues with Episode 34 of Discern Realities!

In addition to the great discussion in this episode, we also announce a new compendium class contest! Here are the details of the contest:

Deadline: January 15th

Prizes: winner will receive a $50 gift card to either DriveThru or Amazon (winner’s choice); the winner and two runners-up will be invited onto the show to discuss their CCs.

Where to submit: paste into the comments of a DR G+ post or email to gauntletpodcast@gmail.com.

Cc: Mark Diaz Truman Brendan Conway Slade Stolar

Enjoy!

http://www.gauntlet-rpg.com/discern-realities/episode-34

64 thoughts on “Chase away your election blues with Episode 34 of Discern Realities!”

  1. Oooo what a good one! I loved the HP abstraction, I’d never thought of it like that before. That’s really neat!

    In The Veil I actually just outright say based on how well you roll, narrative control lies completely with the MC, it’s shared, or the player has it. I always feel like taking that narrative control away from the player is lame. Most people have a very specific thing they want to do, let them do the thing. Afterwards they know that control goes back to the MC, so I don’t get why you’d take it away.

    I just made a compendium class for Timothy Bennett pbp game he’s put together. Maybe I’ll submit that, I think it’s pretty cool.

    Great AP as usual fellows!

  2. Oooo what a good one! I loved the HP abstraction, I’d never thought of it like that before. That’s really neat!

    In The Veil I actually just outright say based on how well you roll, narrative control lies completely with the MC, it’s shared, or the player has it. I always feel like taking that narrative control away from the player is lame. Most people have a very specific thing they want to do, let them do the thing. Afterwards they know that control goes back to the MC, so I don’t get why you’d take it away.

    I just made a compendium class for Timothy Bennett pbp game he’s put together. Maybe I’ll submit that, I think it’s pretty cool.

    Great AP as usual fellows!

  7. I’m interested in a discussion about the necessity of HP at all. One of my sticking points about DW is some of its D&D holdovers. They usually aren’t too obtrusive, but things like separate numbers for stats and modifiers, carry weight, rations, etc. can be distracting for me, and HP might fall into that same category. I see that it can serve a purpose as a pacing mechanic, but I wonder if the Indie Hack’s system that you mentioned in the podcast would be better for that.

  8. I’m interested in a discussion about the necessity of HP at all. One of my sticking points about DW is some of its D&D holdovers. They usually aren’t too obtrusive, but things like separate numbers for stats and modifiers, carry weight, rations, etc. can be distracting for me, and HP might fall into that same category. I see that it can serve a purpose as a pacing mechanic, but I wonder if the Indie Hack’s system that you mentioned in the podcast would be better for that.

  9. Michael G. Barford

    One of the things that I was trying for in The Indie Hack was to get away from some of the holdovers from OSR gaming that don’t make a lot of sense to me (there’s a lot that still does, but let’s leave that for another day).

    HP and XP are two of the most egregious offenders. HP inflation seems to lead to battles that are attrition-based. DW handles this quite a lot better, as you can see in that famous post about the 16 HP Dragon and narrative positioning (damn, I can’t find a link at the moment), but it still relies on “you are X% toward being dead” in the mechanics (if not in the fiction).

    I much prefer “you have a broken leg (from that fight with the goblins), a shattered collection of bones where your left ribs used to be (and you’ve been roleplaying horrible, painful coughing, nice!), and a mild concussion (from where you tried to jump that gap in the crumbling tower).” It sounds like a lot of book-keeping, but in the two seconds it takes to write down, you’d just be doing HP math. Later, you’ve got a really sick scar (or ringing in the ears that never fully goes away) to talk about around the fire, or as you face judgement, or to impress the object of your affection, or prove your toughness, or whatever other situation you find yourself in.

    EDIT: Here’s a copy-paste of the original story: https://www.reddit.com/r/gametales/comments/29tfyg/dungeon_world_scariest_monster_ever_16_hp/

  10. Michael G. Barford

    One of the things that I was trying for in The Indie Hack was to get away from some of the holdovers from OSR gaming that don’t make a lot of sense to me (there’s a lot that still does, but let’s leave that for another day).

    HP and XP are two of the most egregious offenders. HP inflation seems to lead to battles that are attrition-based. DW handles this quite a lot better, as you can see in that famous post about the 16 HP Dragon and narrative positioning (damn, I can’t find a link at the moment), but it still relies on “you are X% toward being dead” in the mechanics (if not in the fiction).

    I much prefer “you have a broken leg (from that fight with the goblins), a shattered collection of bones where your left ribs used to be (and you’ve been roleplaying horrible, painful coughing, nice!), and a mild concussion (from where you tried to jump that gap in the crumbling tower).” It sounds like a lot of book-keeping, but in the two seconds it takes to write down, you’d just be doing HP math. Later, you’ve got a really sick scar (or ringing in the ears that never fully goes away) to talk about around the fire, or as you face judgement, or to impress the object of your affection, or prove your toughness, or whatever other situation you find yourself in.

    EDIT: Here’s a copy-paste of the original story: https://www.reddit.com/r/gametales/comments/29tfyg/dungeon_world_scariest_monster_ever_16_hp/

  11. Just started listening and wanted to weigh in on GMing PbtA games at conventions!

    I was just at GameHole Con in Madison, WI and ran a few Dungeon World games there and found that my tables almost necessitated me narrating high success rolls. I think it may just have been from the nature of con play as a few players who had played some other PbtA games were eager to elaborate on the fiction. The ones I struggled with were coming from D&D/Pathfinder and needed more of a nudge.

    Either way, neither of you are doing anything wrong in your games 🙂

  12. Just started listening and wanted to weigh in on GMing PbtA games at conventions!

    I was just at GameHole Con in Madison, WI and ran a few Dungeon World games there and found that my tables almost necessitated me narrating high success rolls. I think it may just have been from the nature of con play as a few players who had played some other PbtA games were eager to elaborate on the fiction. The ones I struggled with were coming from D&D/Pathfinder and needed more of a nudge.

    Either way, neither of you are doing anything wrong in your games 🙂

  13. Rob Donahue​​​​ of Evil Hat likes to talk about HP being a pacing mechanism, to the point where he suggests giving then to weather events and things (I guess grim portents are a similar idea). For that purpose he found the swingyness of DW damage a bit frustrating (ie. If your fighter keeps rolling 1s, the battle can drag on past its narrative usefulness). Which basically agrees with what Slade Stolar​​​ is saying above.

    Here’s another thought: if HP primarily represents “battle fatigue”, then doesn’t that make the bard’s power feel less like “shooting magic out of a guitar”? I can easily imagine an inspiring battle song that makes the fatigue of his or her comrades drop away.

  14. Rob Donahue​​​​ of Evil Hat likes to talk about HP being a pacing mechanism, to the point where he suggests giving then to weather events and things (I guess grim portents are a similar idea). For that purpose he found the swingyness of DW damage a bit frustrating (ie. If your fighter keeps rolling 1s, the battle can drag on past its narrative usefulness). Which basically agrees with what Slade Stolar​​​ is saying above.

    Here’s another thought: if HP primarily represents “battle fatigue”, then doesn’t that make the bard’s power feel less like “shooting magic out of a guitar”? I can easily imagine an inspiring battle song that makes the fatigue of his or her comrades drop away.

  15. On the PbtA at conventions thing: my one experience was Dungeon World earlier this year. The GM definitely kept the narrative control most of the time. He also went with players just asking to do moves quite often. In this case I suspect it was just because everyone was new to the game, but what he didn’t do was explain to us at the start how things were supposed to work.

    My understanding is that in DW specifically, Sage and Adam very deliberately left the narrative control question up in the air for the most part. This means that story and trad gamers can come at it from whichever angle they’re most comfortable. I’d be interested to know where other PbtA fall on this.

    On the other hand, the fact that moves must be triggered by the fiction is an explicit rule, and one of the most important. PbtA is really diminished without it.

    That said, there are some moves that are harder to make sense of in the fiction than others. Discern Realities itself seems like it can become a bit meta, if the questions you end up asking don’t quite match the fictional description you gave of looking around or whatever.

  16. On the PbtA at conventions thing: my one experience was Dungeon World earlier this year. The GM definitely kept the narrative control most of the time. He also went with players just asking to do moves quite often. In this case I suspect it was just because everyone was new to the game, but what he didn’t do was explain to us at the start how things were supposed to work.

    My understanding is that in DW specifically, Sage and Adam very deliberately left the narrative control question up in the air for the most part. This means that story and trad gamers can come at it from whichever angle they’re most comfortable. I’d be interested to know where other PbtA fall on this.

    On the other hand, the fact that moves must be triggered by the fiction is an explicit rule, and one of the most important. PbtA is really diminished without it.

    That said, there are some moves that are harder to make sense of in the fiction than others. Discern Realities itself seems like it can become a bit meta, if the questions you end up asking don’t quite match the fictional description you gave of looking around or whatever.

  25. On HP Abstraction:

    While I’d be happy to see it go, as long as we’re discussing having “the fighter that is never hit” using HP as a measure of weariness, bear in mind it can go the other way – or rather, we can let the players individually choose what HP is abstracting.

    Perhaps one wants HP to represent weariness; perhaps another has a titanic barbarian, who takes grievous wounds and bruises but just Keeps. On. Coming. Same HP, but for him, the fiction of “3 hp damage” is a massive, bloody bruise, and his abstraction focuses on the pain-insensitivity and endurance of his big bruiser. Perhaps the Mage would rather his HP represent not physical weariness, but mystical: a shimmering aura lingers a hair’s breadth from his skin, and his HP plummet, so too does the reserve of will with which he maintains the only thing keeping him from going splat. There’s no reason players can’t individualize the HP abstraction.

    Or, you know, look at City of Mist for an example of how to get rid of HP altogether, and aim for a tag-based system that’s compatible with the apocalypse engine.

  26. On HP Abstraction:

    While I’d be happy to see it go, as long as we’re discussing having “the fighter that is never hit” using HP as a measure of weariness, bear in mind it can go the other way – or rather, we can let the players individually choose what HP is abstracting.

    Perhaps one wants HP to represent weariness; perhaps another has a titanic barbarian, who takes grievous wounds and bruises but just Keeps. On. Coming. Same HP, but for him, the fiction of “3 hp damage” is a massive, bloody bruise, and his abstraction focuses on the pain-insensitivity and endurance of his big bruiser. Perhaps the Mage would rather his HP represent not physical weariness, but mystical: a shimmering aura lingers a hair’s breadth from his skin, and his HP plummet, so too does the reserve of will with which he maintains the only thing keeping him from going splat. There’s no reason players can’t individualize the HP abstraction.

    Or, you know, look at City of Mist for an example of how to get rid of HP altogether, and aim for a tag-based system that’s compatible with the apocalypse engine.

  27. Still part way through the episode, but wanted to weigh in while I had my mind on it!

    Metatopia specifically has REALLY teeny-tiny little game slots. It’s a 2 hour period and there’s not necessarily passing time before or after the slot, so GMs need to keep their games really tight in order to test the things they’re trying to test. Given that they’ve got to teach the game to the players (and often make characters) during this brief time, lots of them take little shortcuts they wouldn’t take while GMing normally.

    I totally agree with you outside of that setting though! On a hit, the players mostly are able to describe what is going on and I almost always would leave that in their hands! I think I may have been guilty of jumping on the narrative just to keep things moving on from the move itself (though our playtest was kind of wonky and didn’t have rolls as often as I’d hoped… Need to reword my moves). In my regular day-to-day gaming though, that’s the player’s hit, that’s the players narration!

  28. Still part way through the episode, but wanted to weigh in while I had my mind on it!

    Metatopia specifically has REALLY teeny-tiny little game slots. It’s a 2 hour period and there’s not necessarily passing time before or after the slot, so GMs need to keep their games really tight in order to test the things they’re trying to test. Given that they’ve got to teach the game to the players (and often make characters) during this brief time, lots of them take little shortcuts they wouldn’t take while GMing normally.

    I totally agree with you outside of that setting though! On a hit, the players mostly are able to describe what is going on and I almost always would leave that in their hands! I think I may have been guilty of jumping on the narrative just to keep things moving on from the move itself (though our playtest was kind of wonky and didn’t have rolls as often as I’d hoped… Need to reword my moves). In my regular day-to-day gaming though, that’s the player’s hit, that’s the players narration!

  33. My objection to the bard has mostly been about time and place. To me, whether their magic song is reducing battle fatigue or literally healing you, it still doesn’t make much sense to me that they should be able to do that in the middle of a fight. While a combat might take 10-20 minutes of table time, it’s probably less than a minute of in-fiction time (in some cases, probably only seconds). To me, the only way a bard would be able to use Arcane Art in the context of a battle is if, to use my pithy turn of phrase, “they’re shooting magic out of their guitar.”

  34. My objection to the bard has mostly been about time and place. To me, whether their magic song is reducing battle fatigue or literally healing you, it still doesn’t make much sense to me that they should be able to do that in the middle of a fight. While a combat might take 10-20 minutes of table time, it’s probably less than a minute of in-fiction time (in some cases, probably only seconds). To me, the only way a bard would be able to use Arcane Art in the context of a battle is if, to use my pithy turn of phrase, “they’re shooting magic out of their guitar.”

  37. Re: GM vs. Player narrative control on a hit, and whether that’s a “con game” thing: I don’t think it is. I think that the GM giving up narrative control on a 7+ is a play-style and play-culture thing, one that’s especially common to the Gauntlet.

    But it’s not anywhere in the rules text of DW or AW. Unless I’ve missed something (and I just took a pretty thorough look), there’s nothing in the DW text actively saying you should ask the player to narrate what success looks like. And in all of the play examples, the GM is the one the narrating the outcomes.

    When I first started listening to Discern Realities, I found it really jarring that Jason would ask David to narrate his successes. It was totally different than anything I’d ever seen in DW or AW! I’ve come to like it, and I see a lot of the value in it, but I don’t think anything in the game text would lead someone to playing this way. It’s just a feature of the Gauntlet’s play culture.

    Personally, I do tend to keep narrative control as the GM on a 7+, unless the move specifically indicates otherwise. There’s a lot be said for it. It keeps the game moving more quickly. It gives me more curation over the game’s aesthetic, and helps keep the world feeling more consistent. It helps me control the spotlight. It helps take the pressure off of players who are less imaginative or less comfortable coming up with “cool” verbal descriptions on the spot. It allows me to express the style or dangers of NPCs and monsters and dangers.

    I don’t think that one way is better and the other is worse. I think it’s just different styles and expectations.

  38. Re: GM vs. Player narrative control on a hit, and whether that’s a “con game” thing: I don’t think it is. I think that the GM giving up narrative control on a 7+ is a play-style and play-culture thing, one that’s especially common to the Gauntlet.

    But it’s not anywhere in the rules text of DW or AW. Unless I’ve missed something (and I just took a pretty thorough look), there’s nothing in the DW text actively saying you should ask the player to narrate what success looks like. And in all of the play examples, the GM is the one the narrating the outcomes.

    When I first started listening to Discern Realities, I found it really jarring that Jason would ask David to narrate his successes. It was totally different than anything I’d ever seen in DW or AW! I’ve come to like it, and I see a lot of the value in it, but I don’t think anything in the game text would lead someone to playing this way. It’s just a feature of the Gauntlet’s play culture.

    Personally, I do tend to keep narrative control as the GM on a 7+, unless the move specifically indicates otherwise. There’s a lot be said for it. It keeps the game moving more quickly. It gives me more curation over the game’s aesthetic, and helps keep the world feeling more consistent. It helps me control the spotlight. It helps take the pressure off of players who are less imaginative or less comfortable coming up with “cool” verbal descriptions on the spot. It allows me to express the style or dangers of NPCs and monsters and dangers.

    I don’t think that one way is better and the other is worse. I think it’s just different styles and expectations.

  39. Jeremy Strandberg I suspected that was probably the case. I do happen to think one of the reasons I’ve had so much success with my games (and my measure of “success” is how quickly they fill up when I put them on the calendar; at this point, it takes around 10-15 minutes) is I try to keep the players hyper-engaged at all times. Letting them narrate their hits is a great way of doing that.

  40. Jeremy Strandberg I suspected that was probably the case. I do happen to think one of the reasons I’ve had so much success with my games (and my measure of “success” is how quickly they fill up when I put them on the calendar; at this point, it takes around 10-15 minutes) is I try to keep the players hyper-engaged at all times. Letting them narrate their hits is a great way of doing that.

  41. Jason Cordova your objection does make more sense in the context of talking about timing. In which case I think you’re perfectly justified in explaining to players that they just don’t have time to start playing music in the midst of a battle. But then maybe set up some battles where the characters get advance warning that a fight will happen, so that the bard can already be in full song when battle is joined.

  42. Jason Cordova your objection does make more sense in the context of talking about timing. In which case I think you’re perfectly justified in explaining to players that they just don’t have time to start playing music in the midst of a battle. But then maybe set up some battles where the characters get advance warning that a fight will happen, so that the bard can already be in full song when battle is joined.

  43. Great episode and I really appreciate you guys taking on the topic of HP abstraction. I also found a lot to like in the way the Indy hack handles it.

    What I’ve tried to do with HP in my games (big emphasis on try, but this is the goal anyway) is to take it a step further and allow the damage roll to further inform the fiction rather than making it optional.

    I think this is in keeping with the book as the text specifically calls out stages of damage based on the dice rolls d4 is bruised and battered d6 scratched up d8 broken bones etc so you wait for the roll and if it hits those thresholds you build your fiction around that.

    Good stuff guys thanks for focusing on this topic.

  44. Great episode and I really appreciate you guys taking on the topic of HP abstraction. I also found a lot to like in the way the Indy hack handles it.

    What I’ve tried to do with HP in my games (big emphasis on try, but this is the goal anyway) is to take it a step further and allow the damage roll to further inform the fiction rather than making it optional.

    I think this is in keeping with the book as the text specifically calls out stages of damage based on the dice rolls d4 is bruised and battered d6 scratched up d8 broken bones etc so you wait for the roll and if it hits those thresholds you build your fiction around that.

    Good stuff guys thanks for focusing on this topic.

  55. For me, this was one of the best episodes ever. I thought the discussions of narrative control and hit points were both excellent. The Monkey Friend compendium class is brilliant. The AP was gripping. Good from start to finish.

  56. For me, this was one of the best episodes ever. I thought the discussions of narrative control and hit points were both excellent. The Monkey Friend compendium class is brilliant. The AP was gripping. Good from start to finish.

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