PbtA Games Question:
How many PbtA games don’t have a strong and clear fictional genre or trope they’re emulating? Or change it up so much that it detaches from the original? I’m thinking about this after trying to work through Legacy and figure out how to approach it at the table. It cites Stalker, Fallout, and Mad Max) as sources, but it also cites the Civilization video game. So we’ve got two very different approaches blended for a hybrid genre (generational post-apocalyptic) that isn’t as well represented (He mentions Canticle for Leibowitz).
So are there other PbtA games presenting something most players won’t have a fictional touchstone for?
(Alternately have I missed a library of multigenerational PA stories?)
Possibly Night Witches, but it gets away with it by being an extremely focused story. And I think that’s the key: the more unusual the setting, the greater the need for specific fictional goals.
Possibly Night Witches, but it gets away with it by being an extremely focused story. And I think that’s the key: the more unusual the setting, the greater the need for specific fictional goals.
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This game looks great, I’ve been looking for something like this, thanks for the tip!
This game looks great, I’ve been looking for something like this, thanks for the tip!
There are a few AW hacks that come to mind for presenting something a bit out there in terms of fictional touchstones – I’d say Night Witches, while a war story, is a very specific kind of one, and Sagas of the Icelanders is based loosely on Nordic history rather than any particular piece of fiction as far as I’m aware.
Re: multi-generational post-apocalypse stories, Fallout does do this a bit, when you look at sequential games in the series – the change from the vault dwellers in fallout 1 to the starting tribe in fallout 2, for example, or the change in the brotherhood of steel from when you see it in Fallout 3 to when you meet it again in Fallout 4. Similarly Mad Max presents a very different stages of a wasteland – and, in a favourite fan theory of mine, different Maxes – at every film. You can easily imagine that each film represents a new generation of post-apocalypse, with a new wandering road warrior rising to prominence.
It’s the first time I’ve had the thought that maybe Legacy has a bit too loose of a fictional grounding, and I definitely think there’s some truth to that. As the author its fiction is very clear in my head but it’s sometimes hard to communicate that on the page!
There are a few AW hacks that come to mind for presenting something a bit out there in terms of fictional touchstones – I’d say Night Witches, while a war story, is a very specific kind of one, and Sagas of the Icelanders is based loosely on Nordic history rather than any particular piece of fiction as far as I’m aware.
Re: multi-generational post-apocalypse stories, Fallout does do this a bit, when you look at sequential games in the series – the change from the vault dwellers in fallout 1 to the starting tribe in fallout 2, for example, or the change in the brotherhood of steel from when you see it in Fallout 3 to when you meet it again in Fallout 4. Similarly Mad Max presents a very different stages of a wasteland – and, in a favourite fan theory of mine, different Maxes – at every film. You can easily imagine that each film represents a new generation of post-apocalypse, with a new wandering road warrior rising to prominence.
It’s the first time I’ve had the thought that maybe Legacy has a bit too loose of a fictional grounding, and I definitely think there’s some truth to that. As the author its fiction is very clear in my head but it’s sometimes hard to communicate that on the page!
Good question.
Good question.
Interesting- I hadn’t thought about Night Witches in that context but it makes sense. As you suggest, the focused structure provides the framework over fictional touchstones. I also hadn’t considered Fallout because they’re so individual. But I also wasn’t sure how much the world advanced and changed between games.
I wonder if the Warren falls into this category? Has anyone looked at Steam World? Does it have a focus for the steampunk or is it just applying the trappings?
Interesting- I hadn’t thought about Night Witches in that context but it makes sense. As you suggest, the focused structure provides the framework over fictional touchstones. I also hadn’t considered Fallout because they’re so individual. But I also wasn’t sure how much the world advanced and changed between games.
I wonder if the Warren falls into this category? Has anyone looked at Steam World? Does it have a focus for the steampunk or is it just applying the trappings?
For the Warren, depends on how many people in the group have watched/read Watership Down I suppose! If they have, the fiction roots are pretty clear – if they haven’t people may be likely to look at the game with incomprehension and bemusement.
For the Warren, depends on how many people in the group have watched/read Watership Down I suppose! If they have, the fiction roots are pretty clear – if they haven’t people may be likely to look at the game with incomprehension and bemusement.
On the generational post-apoc thread, Fallout’s an extreme example, partially because each game is set in a new location and partially because things change so much between games it’s hard sometimes to recognise the things that have evolved from game to game.
On the other end of the scale, I could maybe point to The Walking Dead – the farmhouse stage is one Age, the prison the next, the gated community the one after that. Yes, there’s only a few months/years between each section, but they’re sufficiently distinct tonally to work as different Ages for Legacy’s purposes.
On the generational post-apoc thread, Fallout’s an extreme example, partially because each game is set in a new location and partially because things change so much between games it’s hard sometimes to recognise the things that have evolved from game to game.
On the other end of the scale, I could maybe point to The Walking Dead – the farmhouse stage is one Age, the prison the next, the gated community the one after that. Yes, there’s only a few months/years between each section, but they’re sufficiently distinct tonally to work as different Ages for Legacy’s purposes.
James Iles Was The Earth Abides an influence?
James Iles Was The Earth Abides an influence?
Tom Walker It wasn’t actually – before your comment I’d never heard of it! ^_^ Looking at its wikipedia page it definitely fits though. Really the main influence was A Canticle for Leibowitz – its huge time jumps, its sense of people picking through the rubble of a long-forgotten age of wonders, and the sense that humanity could rebuild and become something far greater and stranger than what existed before everything blew up. Mix some S.T.A.L.K.E.R.-flavoured spatial anomalies and weird, twisted monsters in with that and you have the basic DNA of Legacy.
Tom Walker It wasn’t actually – before your comment I’d never heard of it! ^_^ Looking at its wikipedia page it definitely fits though. Really the main influence was A Canticle for Leibowitz – its huge time jumps, its sense of people picking through the rubble of a long-forgotten age of wonders, and the sense that humanity could rebuild and become something far greater and stranger than what existed before everything blew up. Mix some S.T.A.L.K.E.R.-flavoured spatial anomalies and weird, twisted monsters in with that and you have the basic DNA of Legacy.
Legacy reminded me of Stephen King’s Dark Tower series and the legacy of the gunslingers in the world that has “moved on.” That is also straight up the character/ family I played, with my own spin on it of course.
Legacy reminded me of Stephen King’s Dark Tower series and the legacy of the gunslingers in the world that has “moved on.” That is also straight up the character/ family I played, with my own spin on it of course.
Lawgivers, I presume? 😀
Lawgivers, I presume? 😀
Of course! individually they were called gunslingers, but as a group they were collectively called the Errant Justice
Of course! individually they were called gunslingers, but as a group they were collectively called the Errant Justice
As to the multi-generational question, I am new to it, but from the book #TheWarren is designed from the start as being multi-generational. While you play rabbits in the warren, you also play the warren itself as experienced through generations of rabbits (as long as you play it over the long term). The world is just too brutal for rabbits to survive for very long.
My kids, whom I play with, have never read Watership Down. Their only touchstones are nature documentaries, the Wild Kratz TV show, and their own observations of the wildlife in our neighborhood. And they are doing amazing things with the story.
I always love to watch a group of roleplayers that has at least one person who is new to role playing. The reason being that they are not necessarily weighed down by the tropes of what they are about to play. That can be incredibly refreshing.
It could also blow up in your face.
Fun either way.
As to the multi-generational question, I am new to it, but from the book #TheWarren is designed from the start as being multi-generational. While you play rabbits in the warren, you also play the warren itself as experienced through generations of rabbits (as long as you play it over the long term). The world is just too brutal for rabbits to survive for very long.
My kids, whom I play with, have never read Watership Down. Their only touchstones are nature documentaries, the Wild Kratz TV show, and their own observations of the wildlife in our neighborhood. And they are doing amazing things with the story.
I always love to watch a group of roleplayers that has at least one person who is new to role playing. The reason being that they are not necessarily weighed down by the tropes of what they are about to play. That can be incredibly refreshing.
It could also blow up in your face.
Fun either way.
Isn’t this why the touchstones which inspired the game (fictional or otherwise) are explicitly named in PbtA rulebooks? If you’re wondering how the game is meant to feel at the table, you go off and do the homework, and then you know.
From my perspective, the real test of a PbtA game text is whether it can convey the intended feel without forcing you to go back to the source material. People criticize Apocalypse World’s rulebook for its occasional lack of clarity, and they’re not wrong about that, but in terms of conveying the intended feel of the game, Baker’s text works perfectly.
Isn’t this why the touchstones which inspired the game (fictional or otherwise) are explicitly named in PbtA rulebooks? If you’re wondering how the game is meant to feel at the table, you go off and do the homework, and then you know.
From my perspective, the real test of a PbtA game text is whether it can convey the intended feel without forcing you to go back to the source material. People criticize Apocalypse World’s rulebook for its occasional lack of clarity, and they’re not wrong about that, but in terms of conveying the intended feel of the game, Baker’s text works perfectly.
I don’t think The Warren captures Watership Down very well personally. It certainly captures some aspects of it, but the characters in Watership aren’t disposable the way the characters in the Warren are. It is probably my own hangups, but that makes it a very different game from my perspective.
Although I really like Masks, I’m not sure the shifting attributes thing mimics anything that I see in the fiction it is based off. Their roles in the teams don’t shift, but confidence does go up and down. So there’s a strong fictional background to the game, but (imo) not for this core mechanic.
I don’t think The Warren captures Watership Down very well personally. It certainly captures some aspects of it, but the characters in Watership aren’t disposable the way the characters in the Warren are. It is probably my own hangups, but that makes it a very different game from my perspective.
Although I really like Masks, I’m not sure the shifting attributes thing mimics anything that I see in the fiction it is based off. Their roles in the teams don’t shift, but confidence does go up and down. So there’s a strong fictional background to the game, but (imo) not for this core mechanic.
Velvet Glove stands out to me as a PbtA game without an obvious fictional anchor, but you get a strong sense of what it’s going for just from the mechanics.
Velvet Glove stands out to me as a PbtA game without an obvious fictional anchor, but you get a strong sense of what it’s going for just from the mechanics.
John Alexander It seems most like Keiron Gillen’s Young Avengers run, to the point that the characters on the game’s cover are an almost 1:1 correlation for the team! In that, teen drama and the hero’s self-image are very important to their effectiveness as a team, and I can definitely see Masks emulating it well.
John Alexander It seems most like Keiron Gillen’s Young Avengers run, to the point that the characters on the game’s cover are an almost 1:1 correlation for the team! In that, teen drama and the hero’s self-image are very important to their effectiveness as a team, and I can definitely see Masks emulating it well.