Please name games that are EXCELLENT, in spite of the fact that they are not powered by the apocalypse?

Please name games that are EXCELLENT, in spite of the fact that they are not powered by the apocalypse?

Please name games that are EXCELLENT, in spite of the fact that they are not powered by the apocalypse?

Maybe they are excellent because they are not PbtA?

Basically, I’ve started thinking to myself when I hear of a new RPG: “yeah, great – but why not just make it PbtA?”.

I need to break out of that mindset (don’t I?) – and so need some suggestions for games that Definitely are better because they are not PbtA.

Are there any?

64 thoughts on “Please name games that are EXCELLENT, in spite of the fact that they are not powered by the apocalypse?”

  1. I may not understand the question, but there are many, many wonderful games that aren’t PbtA. I don’t think they’re great because they aren’t PbtA, but rather because the designer landed on mechanics that best met their goals. We talk about such games on Gauntlet Podcast all the time.

  2. I may not understand the question, but there are many, many wonderful games that aren’t PbtA. I don’t think they’re great because they aren’t PbtA, but rather because the designer landed on mechanics that best met their goals. We talk about such games on Gauntlet Podcast all the time.

  5. 1%er, Outlaw Biker Game is excellently paired with its system. It may seem a bit juvenile that the in-game economy is called fucks, but it works. You can give a fuck, fucking do something, beat the fuck out of people, and you have to rest up when you have no more fucks to give.

  6. 1%er, Outlaw Biker Game is excellently paired with its system. It may seem a bit juvenile that the in-game economy is called fucks, but it works. You can give a fuck, fucking do something, beat the fuck out of people, and you have to rest up when you have no more fucks to give.

  9. Blowing my own trumpet (and I feel I can do this, as I’ve also written a few PbtA games), I think Blood & Water is better for being not-PbtA because it’s not about PvP or pre-determined character types. Everyone collaborates on their own mythology and the mechanics rely on the trust between PCs, with fallout for one character’s actions usually falling on another character’s head. You could hack PbtA to do all that, but you’d be running against the grain of the game in many places.

  10. Blowing my own trumpet (and I feel I can do this, as I’ve also written a few PbtA games), I think Blood & Water is better for being not-PbtA because it’s not about PvP or pre-determined character types. Everyone collaborates on their own mythology and the mechanics rely on the trust between PCs, with fallout for one character’s actions usually falling on another character’s head. You could hack PbtA to do all that, but you’d be running against the grain of the game in many places.

  11. Chris Shorb No, probably not. Some excellent games we have talked about recently, such as Alienór, Cold Soldier, and Palace Gates, work perfectly as-is, and making PbtA versions of them wouldn’t make much sense.

  12. Chris Shorb No, probably not. Some excellent games we have talked about recently, such as Alienór, Cold Soldier, and Palace Gates, work perfectly as-is, and making PbtA versions of them wouldn’t make much sense.

  13. I LOVE PbtA games, but I would find our gaming landscape a very boring and less rich landscape if every game were PbtA. There are amazing things being done with Fate, with Gumshoe (the NBA game I played this weekend was amazing and Bubblegumshoe is a ton of fun), and the D&D campaign I’m in is one of the best campaigns I’ve ever played in.

    Also, not all PbtA games are created equally. Some work better than others at what the author set out to achieve. Sometimes, there’s a better game for that same idea using a different system.

  14. I LOVE PbtA games, but I would find our gaming landscape a very boring and less rich landscape if every game were PbtA. There are amazing things being done with Fate, with Gumshoe (the NBA game I played this weekend was amazing and Bubblegumshoe is a ton of fun), and the D&D campaign I’m in is one of the best campaigns I’ve ever played in.

    Also, not all PbtA games are created equally. Some work better than others at what the author set out to achieve. Sometimes, there’s a better game for that same idea using a different system.

  15. Angela Murray That’s very true about not all PbtA games being created equally. On Episode 72 of the cast (coming out Sunday) we talk about two specific PbtA games that miss the mark in some ways.

    I think it’s really unhelpful to think of PbtA as a universal system. In fact, the very best ones (like Jason Morningstar ‘s Night Witches and Marshall Miller’s The Warren) feel very “from the ground-up,” with moves and tech carefully matched-up with the game’s story goals.

  16. Angela Murray That’s very true about not all PbtA games being created equally. On Episode 72 of the cast (coming out Sunday) we talk about two specific PbtA games that miss the mark in some ways.

    I think it’s really unhelpful to think of PbtA as a universal system. In fact, the very best ones (like Jason Morningstar ‘s Night Witches and Marshall Miller’s The Warren) feel very “from the ground-up,” with moves and tech carefully matched-up with the game’s story goals.

  17. – Lady Blackbird would not be as fun if it were PBtA.

    – Don’t Rest Your Head lives and dies on the rich rolling system (hat tip to the fact that the designer called it “rich”)

    – OctaNe is a radically different post apocalypse than Apocalypse World, a function of its design

    – Breaking the Ice would be awful as a PBtA hack

  18. – Lady Blackbird would not be as fun if it were PBtA.

    – Don’t Rest Your Head lives and dies on the rich rolling system (hat tip to the fact that the designer called it “rich”)

    – OctaNe is a radically different post apocalypse than Apocalypse World, a function of its design

    – Breaking the Ice would be awful as a PBtA hack

  19. I am really looking forward to Delta Green. Some of the actual plays from the beta test rules sound really great. It is a crunchier system and I love the bond mechanic (which requires upkeep and is a feedback loop into your recovery and well being). Many people complain about the bonds in games like Dungeon World. Maybe this mechanic is a better way at handling the affect of the stress experienced in the game’s fiction by its characters.

    It is possible that a PbtA game could handle this type of story, but it doesn’t sound like games like Tremulous are interested in telling it and (maybe) PbtA just isn’t a system that is as good at trying to tell it. But that could always be proven wrong by someone else’s take on the system.

  20. I am really looking forward to Delta Green. Some of the actual plays from the beta test rules sound really great. It is a crunchier system and I love the bond mechanic (which requires upkeep and is a feedback loop into your recovery and well being). Many people complain about the bonds in games like Dungeon World. Maybe this mechanic is a better way at handling the affect of the stress experienced in the game’s fiction by its characters.

    It is possible that a PbtA game could handle this type of story, but it doesn’t sound like games like Tremulous are interested in telling it and (maybe) PbtA just isn’t a system that is as good at trying to tell it. But that could always be proven wrong by someone else’s take on the system.

  21. The Final Girl has brilliant pacing which is only possible because there are more characters than players.

    Lasers and Feelings would not work as a PbtA game. Ghost Lines aims a PbtA game at the same space and it just doesn’t work.

    Singularity by Josh Jordan would be completely ruined by resolution mechanics, PbtA or otherwise.

  22. The Final Girl has brilliant pacing which is only possible because there are more characters than players.

    Lasers and Feelings would not work as a PbtA game. Ghost Lines aims a PbtA game at the same space and it just doesn’t work.

    Singularity by Josh Jordan would be completely ruined by resolution mechanics, PbtA or otherwise.

  23. Richard Rogers Lady Blackbird and Dread were the two I had in mind as maybe being better as they are – although full disclosure, I have not played either… Yet.

    Thanks everyone else for your suggestions. James Mullen curious – did you write a PbtA hack first, and then realize that other story ideas in your head wouldn’t work with what PbtA offers, so you created new mechanics? Or did you come up with a cool mechanic first, and then think about what kind of story that mechanic would drive?

  24. Richard Rogers Lady Blackbird and Dread were the two I had in mind as maybe being better as they are – although full disclosure, I have not played either… Yet.

    Thanks everyone else for your suggestions. James Mullen curious – did you write a PbtA hack first, and then realize that other story ideas in your head wouldn’t work with what PbtA offers, so you created new mechanics? Or did you come up with a cool mechanic first, and then think about what kind of story that mechanic would drive?

  27. Society of dreamers, lovecraftesque, and in a wicked age are the first three that come to mind of games I love that aren’t PBTA and wouldn’t be served by being driven by that game engine

  28. Society of dreamers, lovecraftesque, and in a wicked age are the first three that come to mind of games I love that aren’t PBTA and wouldn’t be served by being driven by that game engine

  29. Chris Shorb Neither of those for B&W: I played Monsterhearts and realised there were other tales of supernatural creatures living among us that I wanted to tell that weren’t easily handled by that system. Knowing the kind of story that I wanted to tell, I came up with a system that enabled/encouraged those types of story and refined it through playtesting.

  30. Chris Shorb Neither of those for B&W: I played Monsterhearts and realised there were other tales of supernatural creatures living among us that I wanted to tell that weren’t easily handled by that system. Knowing the kind of story that I wanted to tell, I came up with a system that enabled/encouraged those types of story and refined it through playtesting.

  33. Marshall Miller indeed, you’ve hit a nice vein of games that would not work very well at all – GM-less games. PbtA games that I’ve heard of depend very strongly on the GM.

  34. Marshall Miller indeed, you’ve hit a nice vein of games that would not work very well at all – GM-less games. PbtA games that I’ve heard of depend very strongly on the GM.

  41. Will Patterson What story is 13th Age trying to tell that’s not covered in Dungeon World?

    FFG’s Star Wars system apparently has a “Fail Forward” type mechanic – isn’t that the 7-9? Why is FFG’s SW better at telling the Start Wars tale? To some degree, isn’t the SW tale as told in the RPG the RPG’s tale? If we used PbtA, it would be a grittier SW tale, but still a SW tale – just grittier? There is a Star World game that is SW universe in PbtA. Why not use that? If for no other reason that you’ll save some money on special dice.

  42. Will Patterson What story is 13th Age trying to tell that’s not covered in Dungeon World?

    FFG’s Star Wars system apparently has a “Fail Forward” type mechanic – isn’t that the 7-9? Why is FFG’s SW better at telling the Start Wars tale? To some degree, isn’t the SW tale as told in the RPG the RPG’s tale? If we used PbtA, it would be a grittier SW tale, but still a SW tale – just grittier? There is a Star World game that is SW universe in PbtA. Why not use that? If for no other reason that you’ll save some money on special dice.

  43. Ultimately, there is actually a danger in thinking that only one system is worth playing. It discounts the ideas and mechanics brought to the table by other systems. It’s okay to say a system is not necessarily for you, but to discount anything but one is bad. Saying only PbtA games are worth playing and that all games could be made PbtA games, in my mind, are as obnoxious and bad as any group or person that clings to one system as the end-all-be-all of gaming.

    Speaking to FFGs Star Wars… I don’t WANT my Star Wars to be grittier. I want it to be Star Wars. Therefore, I would not use PbtA.

  44. Ultimately, there is actually a danger in thinking that only one system is worth playing. It discounts the ideas and mechanics brought to the table by other systems. It’s okay to say a system is not necessarily for you, but to discount anything but one is bad. Saying only PbtA games are worth playing and that all games could be made PbtA games, in my mind, are as obnoxious and bad as any group or person that clings to one system as the end-all-be-all of gaming.

    Speaking to FFGs Star Wars… I don’t WANT my Star Wars to be grittier. I want it to be Star Wars. Therefore, I would not use PbtA.

  45. Chris Shorb I guess I misunderstood the question. I thought you were just asking for non-PbtA games that are still excellent. If you are instead asking for games within a specific genre that are superior to available PbtA hacks within the same genre, that is a different question. If that is the question, then Fiasco would be terrible as a PbtA hack.

    As to 13th Age vs. Dungeon World: Some people enjoy d20 systems. Most of my players prefer d20 systems. I think 13th Age is the best of that type. Personally, I would rather play Dungeon World over 13th Age, but I still think that 13th Age is an excellent game.

    That said, I would choose FFG’s star wars system over the available PbtA hacks that I have seen because the narrative dice are great. The narrative dice have a far greater range of results than PbtA. Don’t get me wrong, I love PbtA, but there is nothing quite like the feeling at a live table when a triumph or a despair is rolled in a dicey situation.

  46. Chris Shorb I guess I misunderstood the question. I thought you were just asking for non-PbtA games that are still excellent. If you are instead asking for games within a specific genre that are superior to available PbtA hacks within the same genre, that is a different question. If that is the question, then Fiasco would be terrible as a PbtA hack.

    As to 13th Age vs. Dungeon World: Some people enjoy d20 systems. Most of my players prefer d20 systems. I think 13th Age is the best of that type. Personally, I would rather play Dungeon World over 13th Age, but I still think that 13th Age is an excellent game.

    That said, I would choose FFG’s star wars system over the available PbtA hacks that I have seen because the narrative dice are great. The narrative dice have a far greater range of results than PbtA. Don’t get me wrong, I love PbtA, but there is nothing quite like the feeling at a live table when a triumph or a despair is rolled in a dicey situation.

  47. Angela Murray Will Patterson  Agree. To some degree I’m being purposefully “obnoxious” (I prefer “challenging” lol) to play devil’s advocate. Specifically Angela – When you say you want Star Wars to be Star Wars – do you mean D6 Star Wars? D20 Star Wars? FFG Star Wars? Those all have markedly different rules sets – how have those rules sets informed the play, and in turn been informed by and have informed the setting? And couldn’t someone write a PbtA game that isn’t gritty? What if the moves tended more towards the positive (as Rob D outlines in this great article: http://walkingmind.evilhat.com/2016/07/26/2d6-and-3-out-of-5/)

    All that said, I’m very interested in playing FFG Star Wars for the richness of results that the dice can return.

  48. Angela Murray Will Patterson  Agree. To some degree I’m being purposefully “obnoxious” (I prefer “challenging” lol) to play devil’s advocate. Specifically Angela – When you say you want Star Wars to be Star Wars – do you mean D6 Star Wars? D20 Star Wars? FFG Star Wars? Those all have markedly different rules sets – how have those rules sets informed the play, and in turn been informed by and have informed the setting? And couldn’t someone write a PbtA game that isn’t gritty? What if the moves tended more towards the positive (as Rob D outlines in this great article: http://walkingmind.evilhat.com/2016/07/26/2d6-and-3-out-of-5/)

    All that said, I’m very interested in playing FFG Star Wars for the richness of results that the dice can return.

  49. Without derailing the conversation too much, I feel that so far, under the right GM, FFG’s Star Wars has come closest to making me feel like my character is actually living in the Star Wars universe.

    WEG’s D6 system is interesting and great for its time, but it feels dated to me now. D20 is D20 and is falls into the level trap. FFG’s dice mechanic really does a great job of bringing up those “I’ve got a bad feeling about this” moments. Failing with five advantages really challenges you to figure out how that plays out.

    Of course, your mileage may vary and a lot depends on the GM running it.

  50. Without derailing the conversation too much, I feel that so far, under the right GM, FFG’s Star Wars has come closest to making me feel like my character is actually living in the Star Wars universe.

    WEG’s D6 system is interesting and great for its time, but it feels dated to me now. D20 is D20 and is falls into the level trap. FFG’s dice mechanic really does a great job of bringing up those “I’ve got a bad feeling about this” moments. Failing with five advantages really challenges you to figure out how that plays out.

    Of course, your mileage may vary and a lot depends on the GM running it.

  51. Chris Shorb​​

    FFG’s “Fail Foward” system is more close to a true fail forward than Pbta. Pbta isnt actually a fail foward, at least the rules dont instruct you to play it that way (even though as a GM its in your right to). Pbta’s rules fail the story foward, not the characters. This is a BIG difference. “Fail Foward” has a bad rep because it can make your actions feel useless. Even if the characters fail, they still get what they want.

    7-9 is NOT a fail. Its just a complication.

    6- is a fail

    On the subject

    I like 4e dnd. It does exactly what it set out to do. I like to play it on occasion when i want some grit and strategic war gamey ness

  52. Chris Shorb​​

    FFG’s “Fail Foward” system is more close to a true fail forward than Pbta. Pbta isnt actually a fail foward, at least the rules dont instruct you to play it that way (even though as a GM its in your right to). Pbta’s rules fail the story foward, not the characters. This is a BIG difference. “Fail Foward” has a bad rep because it can make your actions feel useless. Even if the characters fail, they still get what they want.

    7-9 is NOT a fail. Its just a complication.

    6- is a fail

    On the subject

    I like 4e dnd. It does exactly what it set out to do. I like to play it on occasion when i want some grit and strategic war gamey ness

  53. I like D100 games a whole lot, the best, in my opinion is Mythras. A new arrival is M-Space based on Mythras Imperative. I also like D6 games, my favorite is Mini Six which is free.

  54. I like D100 games a whole lot, the best, in my opinion is Mythras. A new arrival is M-Space based on Mythras Imperative. I also like D6 games, my favorite is Mini Six which is free.

  61. The ones I’ve enjoyed recently include:

    Dread (jenga-based system)

    Microscope

    Kingdom

    Downfall

    Fall of Magic

    The Quiet Year

    The Skeletons

    Various from postworldgames including:

    Protocol system, Praxis system such as Black Monk and King of Storms, George’s Children, Forget-Me-Not, Dying Memoryes

  62. The ones I’ve enjoyed recently include:

    Dread (jenga-based system)

    Microscope

    Kingdom

    Downfall

    Fall of Magic

    The Quiet Year

    The Skeletons

    Various from postworldgames including:

    Protocol system, Praxis system such as Black Monk and King of Storms, George’s Children, Forget-Me-Not, Dying Memoryes

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