Does any PbtA game completely do away with the concept of character/adversary health (hp, harm, clocks, etc.)?
If so, what is the replacement? I’m trying to picture a way of making it all work without “Deal Damage” as a GM move, and I’m having a bit of trouble.
Epyllion has a not-exactly-harm based system of this called ‘Shadows’. You have 4 attuned to different emotions. When you mark one, you immediately lash out with that emotion somehow, and becomes a complete jerk when you mark all 4.
Epyllion has a not-exactly-harm based system of this called ‘Shadows’. You have 4 attuned to different emotions. When you mark one, you immediately lash out with that emotion somehow, and becomes a complete jerk when you mark all 4.
I’ve played tons of sessions with my ten year old where we don’t track any hp, harm or abstract “conflict progress” at all. The replacement is fiction!
I talked about the 2 hp golem earlier and it came up on DR too. I lied. It didn’t actually have any hp at all. Only the fiction that it’s eyes were evil magical crystals that kept its near indestructible body animated. It’s kind of like taking a two-segment countdown clock and hiding it in the story rather than writing it down on a sheet. And that’s funny since a countdown clock is really just an abstraction of the fiction in the first place.
My advice is to look at the article about the 16 hp Dragon and imagine that it has only one hp.
I’ve played tons of sessions with my ten year old where we don’t track any hp, harm or abstract “conflict progress” at all. The replacement is fiction!
I talked about the 2 hp golem earlier and it came up on DR too. I lied. It didn’t actually have any hp at all. Only the fiction that it’s eyes were evil magical crystals that kept its near indestructible body animated. It’s kind of like taking a two-segment countdown clock and hiding it in the story rather than writing it down on a sheet. And that’s funny since a countdown clock is really just an abstraction of the fiction in the first place.
My advice is to look at the article about the 16 hp Dragon and imagine that it has only one hp.
Black Stars Rise has the concept of damaged moves. In it each character gets their own “instances” of the basic moves. Each has a damaged version to reflect trauma, where results are skewed slightly sharper toward complication.
Black Stars Rise has the concept of damaged moves. In it each character gets their own “instances” of the basic moves. Each has a damaged version to reflect trauma, where results are skewed slightly sharper toward complication.
Headspace tranlsates damage into emotions, but there are still numbers IIRC.
Headspace tranlsates damage into emotions, but there are still numbers IIRC.
Will Patterson My approach might be a little radical though. It’s really helpful to have some kind of structure to track how things are going in a conflict and a game that runs on GM fiat alone might not be as sustainable.
There are lots of games that don’t track health as such, but they still track progress or positioning one way or another. Panic, emotions, conditions… Are you talking about those kinds of alternatives or are you trying to avoid counters altogether?
Will Patterson My approach might be a little radical though. It’s really helpful to have some kind of structure to track how things are going in a conflict and a game that runs on GM fiat alone might not be as sustainable.
There are lots of games that don’t track health as such, but they still track progress or positioning one way or another. Panic, emotions, conditions… Are you talking about those kinds of alternatives or are you trying to avoid counters altogether?
Definately not PbtA but Mouseguard makes use of Conditions that would translate well to PbtA.
Definately not PbtA but Mouseguard makes use of Conditions that would translate well to PbtA.
Tor Droplets My solutions before posting all boiled down to GM-fiat. Adversaries are out of the action when it makes fictional sense. PCs roll last breath when they have been driven into truly desperate situations. I basically use the rules you described with my boys, but I don’t know if they would fly for every adult group. I don’t have a specific solution in mind. I’m really curious about all the different ways hackers have approached this.
Tor Droplets My solutions before posting all boiled down to GM-fiat. Adversaries are out of the action when it makes fictional sense. PCs roll last breath when they have been driven into truly desperate situations. I basically use the rules you described with my boys, but I don’t know if they would fly for every adult group. I don’t have a specific solution in mind. I’m really curious about all the different ways hackers have approached this.
Legend of the Elements, Worlds in Peril and Masks use conditions. My Just a Game hack also does.
I believe City of Mist is similar using Status.
Legend of the Elements, Worlds in Peril and Masks use conditions. My Just a Game hack also does.
I believe City of Mist is similar using Status.
Cool. In the games I play with my boy, death and permanent injury don’t come up and consequences are generally social or plot centered. Like failing to save the village from destruction or not stopping an evil ritual.
Even though our games are heavily combat focused, there’s no need to track health, but if players are actually at risk of dying I think having some kind of progress/health tracking makes sense.
Looks like some interesting alternatives have been suggested.
Cool. In the games I play with my boy, death and permanent injury don’t come up and consequences are generally social or plot centered. Like failing to save the village from destruction or not stopping an evil ritual.
Even though our games are heavily combat focused, there’s no need to track health, but if players are actually at risk of dying I think having some kind of progress/health tracking makes sense.
Looks like some interesting alternatives have been suggested.
In Sagas of the Icelanders character may get “grave harm”, roll 10+ 2,
9 3, 6die.options: no scar -1 to any atribute; it get’s better on it’s own, it gives purpose (2 bonds at whoever you think is responsible)
In Sagas of the Icelanders character may get “grave harm”, roll 10+ 2,
9 3, 6die.options: no scar -1 to any atribute; it get’s better on it’s own, it gives purpose (2 bonds at whoever you think is responsible)
Tor Droplets PC death doesn’t come up in my kids’ game either, but adults seem to expect it. Plus the Last Breath style moved are always so much fun!
Tor Droplets PC death doesn’t come up in my kids’ game either, but adults seem to expect it. Plus the Last Breath style moved are always so much fun!
My game Telenovela World (Pasion de Los Pasiones) doesn’t have health simply because character death in a telenovela isn’t interesting unless it really fits the scene.
My game Telenovela World (Pasion de Los Pasiones) doesn’t have health simply because character death in a telenovela isn’t interesting unless it really fits the scene.
My game Legacy: Life Among the Ruins has a bit of a halfway house here – GM-controlled threats don’t have health and instead player weapons have tags defining the ways in which they’re a threat. For example the area tag allows you to be a threat to a large group of enemies, the ranged tag lets you be a threat from afar, the brutal tag lets you break through protection/armour on the enemy’s side and so on. If you have a valid weapon, you roll Fiercely Assault and win on a hit, with better rolls giving you better control of how messy and costly the fight is. The system is pretty zoomed-out in how it treats fights compared to DW and AW, so this system works pretty well.
On the player side, each playbook has 5 checkboxes that have descriptions like Angry, Winded, Hallucinating etc.; when you suffer harm you mark off a box for each harm and suffer the associated description in the fiction, sometimes with an associated stat penalty. The final box is Dead, which is pretty self-explanatory, though as each playbook has a Death Move that can do cool stuff players can check it to go out in a blaze of glory even if they have harm boxes unchecked.
My game Legacy: Life Among the Ruins has a bit of a halfway house here – GM-controlled threats don’t have health and instead player weapons have tags defining the ways in which they’re a threat. For example the area tag allows you to be a threat to a large group of enemies, the ranged tag lets you be a threat from afar, the brutal tag lets you break through protection/armour on the enemy’s side and so on. If you have a valid weapon, you roll Fiercely Assault and win on a hit, with better rolls giving you better control of how messy and costly the fight is. The system is pretty zoomed-out in how it treats fights compared to DW and AW, so this system works pretty well.
On the player side, each playbook has 5 checkboxes that have descriptions like Angry, Winded, Hallucinating etc.; when you suffer harm you mark off a box for each harm and suffer the associated description in the fiction, sometimes with an associated stat penalty. The final box is Dead, which is pretty self-explanatory, though as each playbook has a Death Move that can do cool stuff players can check it to go out in a blaze of glory even if they have harm boxes unchecked.
So many new (to me) PbtA games to check out in this thread!
So many new (to me) PbtA games to check out in this thread!
James Iles I like the legacy system described here, Torchbearer also has a cool system which sounds similar.
I’ve been thinking about something along these lines for the simple reason that HP seems very abstract and doesn’t seem to incur any in game or fictionally significant affects unless the GM is really on top of things or pushing that fiction.
I’d be really interested to hear other ideas on this topic.
I’ve seen Harm expressed as a move in other posts which could directly apply a condition.
I also think it would also be a cool idea to impose damage rolls to signify the degree of harm in the way DW proscribes (I’m paraphrasing from memory here): 1-4 scrapes and bruises, 5-6 cuts, 7-8 broken bones, 9-10 life threatening.
So you end up tracking wounds and severity of each rather than hit points.
Anyway some interesting ideas being floated on this topic.
.
James Iles I like the legacy system described here, Torchbearer also has a cool system which sounds similar.
I’ve been thinking about something along these lines for the simple reason that HP seems very abstract and doesn’t seem to incur any in game or fictionally significant affects unless the GM is really on top of things or pushing that fiction.
I’d be really interested to hear other ideas on this topic.
I’ve seen Harm expressed as a move in other posts which could directly apply a condition.
I also think it would also be a cool idea to impose damage rolls to signify the degree of harm in the way DW proscribes (I’m paraphrasing from memory here): 1-4 scrapes and bruises, 5-6 cuts, 7-8 broken bones, 9-10 life threatening.
So you end up tracking wounds and severity of each rather than hit points.
Anyway some interesting ideas being floated on this topic.
.
In Fellowship, when you take damage you pick a stat and mark it. While a stat is damaged, you are in Despair and whenever you roll that, you get to roll 3d6 and keep the lowest 2. When you take damage and all your stats are marked, you get Taken Out.
In Fellowship, when you take damage you pick a stat and mark it. While a stat is damaged, you are in Despair and whenever you roll that, you get to roll 3d6 and keep the lowest 2. When you take damage and all your stats are marked, you get Taken Out.
Ron Thomas you bascially described Savage Worlds wound system, which I’ve been thinking about adapting to DW
Ron Thomas you bascially described Savage Worlds wound system, which I’ve been thinking about adapting to DW
jim miller Thank you Jim! I have no experience with savage worlds I’ll have to check that out. I’d be interested to hear your ideas on adapting it to DW.
jim miller Thank you Jim! I have no experience with savage worlds I’ll have to check that out. I’d be interested to hear your ideas on adapting it to DW.