I’m only half paying attention to the chatter about this Invisible Sun Kickstarter. The game itself means almost nothing to me, as Monte Cook stuff isn’t my jam. That said, I don’t begrudge anyone buying it. People are free to do as they will with their money.
Here’s one thing I know, though: I’ve had just as much fun with an $8.00 pdf of The Final Girl as almost anyone will have with their $200 Invisible Sun cube.
I have more fun with the free Lady Blackbird PDF than any product line I’ve dropped hundred of dollars on.
(edited in, because I meant to say it, too) Just because it has a high price tag doesn’t mean it’s worth it. that’s up to you.
Spend your money on whatever fun you want.
I have more fun with the free Lady Blackbird PDF than any product line I’ve dropped hundred of dollars on.
(edited in, because I meant to say it, too) Just because it has a high price tag doesn’t mean it’s worth it. that’s up to you.
Spend your money on whatever fun you want.
I love the Gauntlet Community… All I get is peace and love here… đ
I love the Gauntlet Community… All I get is peace and love here… đ
Monte Cook is my jam. I’ve loved him from his D&D days. But the price of Invisible Sun is far outside my comfort zone.
Monte Cook is my jam. I’ve loved him from his D&D days. But the price of Invisible Sun is far outside my comfort zone.
Eloy Cintron I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic? The game is probably not for me, but I’m actually pretty positive on the project from a marketing standpoint. I think it’s brilliant.
Eloy Cintron I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic? The game is probably not for me, but I’m actually pretty positive on the project from a marketing standpoint. I think it’s brilliant.
My worry is that by the success of it, Kickstarter will become a place for premium experience products instead of a platform that people who would otherwise be unable to publish use.
I don’t have a problem with the product itself, just that it will probably discourage people from putting up small press now, because it will be viewed as a platform that isn’t for that anymore. Peoples money will be tied up in these more expensive games leaving less money for games like Bluebeard’s bride and Companions Tale and what not.
That’s all I’m worried about, it may be unfounded, I’m not sure. I don’t think anyone who buys it is bad, it’s a pretty exclusive audience they are going for. Hopefully that doesn’t become a trend as I think the goal of any TTRPG should be to get it into the hands of as many people as you can to play with, and not an exclusive clientele.
My worry is that by the success of it, Kickstarter will become a place for premium experience products instead of a platform that people who would otherwise be unable to publish use.
I don’t have a problem with the product itself, just that it will probably discourage people from putting up small press now, because it will be viewed as a platform that isn’t for that anymore. Peoples money will be tied up in these more expensive games leaving less money for games like Bluebeard’s bride and Companions Tale and what not.
That’s all I’m worried about, it may be unfounded, I’m not sure. I don’t think anyone who buys it is bad, it’s a pretty exclusive audience they are going for. Hopefully that doesn’t become a trend as I think the goal of any TTRPG should be to get it into the hands of as many people as you can to play with, and not an exclusive clientele.
Sorry! No sarcasm. People sometimes get heated up on the rest of the ‘net, but there’s always peace here. Everyone gets excited about what everyone else is playing!
Sorry! No sarcasm. People sometimes get heated up on the rest of the ‘net, but there’s always peace here. Everyone gets excited about what everyone else is playing!
The project is great but premium pricing is a bit hard to swallow when you consume lots of other games like I do. I wish them success with it though and I’d be really eager to see what people think of it when the reviews hit.
The project is great but premium pricing is a bit hard to swallow when you consume lots of other games like I do. I wish them success with it though and I’d be really eager to see what people think of it when the reviews hit.
Well, I certainly hope I don’t come off as angry. Sometimes I am sure I do, I often forget to write mindfully and use language that isn’t aggressive.
Well, I certainly hope I don’t come off as angry. Sometimes I am sure I do, I often forget to write mindfully and use language that isn’t aggressive.
Fraser Simons honest question: why can’t the 2 things coexist? Does the presence of a luxury item there require that other items be displaced?
I don’t think that this even competes with small press items. Does it?
Fraser Simons honest question: why can’t the 2 things coexist? Does the presence of a luxury item there require that other items be displaced?
I don’t think that this even competes with small press items. Does it?
I don’t think more and more people are using KS, I think it’s the same people who back both and budget for both–for the most part. So when there’s premium products and people buy them, I do believe they may not back small press items that are actually doing the innovations we enjoy. I think both can exist, but not in a way that won’t hinder one or the other, and we know which one will be hurt ultimately.
True innovations in gaming, I would argue, has come from small press. With the bigger companies taking them, arranging them in a specific way and marketing them as revolutionary and innovative.
I don’t think more and more people are using KS, I think it’s the same people who back both and budget for both–for the most part. So when there’s premium products and people buy them, I do believe they may not back small press items that are actually doing the innovations we enjoy. I think both can exist, but not in a way that won’t hinder one or the other, and we know which one will be hurt ultimately.
True innovations in gaming, I would argue, has come from small press. With the bigger companies taking them, arranging them in a specific way and marketing them as revolutionary and innovative.
I think my biggest issue is that it starts at a ridiculous price tags and only goes up. It seems less a game and more an ego project from the read through I gave it.
Still, people are free to spend their cash as they please, and to find happiness as they will. For me, I’ll take my $200, order my players some food, and play a delightful set of games in the spirit of jolly cooperation and adventure!
I think my biggest issue is that it starts at a ridiculous price tags and only goes up. It seems less a game and more an ego project from the read through I gave it.
Still, people are free to spend their cash as they please, and to find happiness as they will. For me, I’ll take my $200, order my players some food, and play a delightful set of games in the spirit of jolly cooperation and adventure!
Eloy Cintron I’m with you on that. This almost seems like a whole different market. In fact, I’d call that market “Monte Cook Games.”
Eloy Cintron I’m with you on that. This almost seems like a whole different market. In fact, I’d call that market “Monte Cook Games.”
Jason Cordova I think the members of the Gauntlet tend to read generously and forgivingly. THAT’s what makes it special. One may stumble over the precise words, but they are taken kindly at first glance. đ
Jason Cordova I think the members of the Gauntlet tend to read generously and forgivingly. THAT’s what makes it special. One may stumble over the precise words, but they are taken kindly at first glance. đ
This reminds me of the time that I suggested to Jason a possible topic for a podcast. Take a budget of $50 and have each of the hosts come up with a list of games for the beginning story gamer. Someone new to SGs. What would you buy first, with $50? A TON of good games. Now imagine that it’s a $197 budget đ
This reminds me of the time that I suggested to Jason a possible topic for a podcast. Take a budget of $50 and have each of the hosts come up with a list of games for the beginning story gamer. Someone new to SGs. What would you buy first, with $50? A TON of good games. Now imagine that it’s a $197 budget đ
Fraser Simons I don’t know…my instinct tells me this isn’t going to affect small press at all. Obviously, that’s not backed with any data, but it really seems to be marketed to someone different. On this thread alone there are six people who aren’t backing it, but are likely to continue backing smaller projects. But I definitely get where you’re coming from. In fact, board game KS might be a good thing to look at in support of your argument. It seems like board games on KS have to be more more MORE for people to back them these days.
Fraser Simons I don’t know…my instinct tells me this isn’t going to affect small press at all. Obviously, that’s not backed with any data, but it really seems to be marketed to someone different. On this thread alone there are six people who aren’t backing it, but are likely to continue backing smaller projects. But I definitely get where you’re coming from. In fact, board game KS might be a good thing to look at in support of your argument. It seems like board games on KS have to be more more MORE for people to back them these days.
Jason Cordova I pray it is a completely different market. Hopefully the awesome upcoming small press that comes will still get the support they need to succeed, and do it will. Personally, I think those are the projects that deserve the most attention. So if people are like awww man, wish I could get Companions Tale, but I blew 800$usd on one guided experience, It’ll be sad, to me. You’re definitely buying an immersive, guided experience with premium components. Maybe I am just being silly, I hope so lol
Jason Cordova I pray it is a completely different market. Hopefully the awesome upcoming small press that comes will still get the support they need to succeed, and do it will. Personally, I think those are the projects that deserve the most attention. So if people are like awww man, wish I could get Companions Tale, but I blew 800$usd on one guided experience, It’ll be sad, to me. You’re definitely buying an immersive, guided experience with premium components. Maybe I am just being silly, I hope so lol
Eloy Cintron That would be a great topic! Maybe a G+ post here in the next day or two?
Eloy Cintron That would be a great topic! Maybe a G+ post here in the next day or two?
I like some of the concepts of what they are talking about, but I just cant see it being ground breaking other than the steep price tag.
Seems like more and more I look to LESS rules in a game, not more.
I’ll take my $5 1%er rules PDF this week out for a first time spin and wonder if a game could be improved by adding $195 more bucks….
I like some of the concepts of what they are talking about, but I just cant see it being ground breaking other than the steep price tag.
Seems like more and more I look to LESS rules in a game, not more.
I’ll take my $5 1%er rules PDF this week out for a first time spin and wonder if a game could be improved by adding $195 more bucks….
Jason Cordova Again, a generous reading by the community would be required. We have tons of wonderful creators and tons of great games. This is just a list to get you started. Hopefully nobody feels left out
Jason Cordova Again, a generous reading by the community would be required. We have tons of wonderful creators and tons of great games. This is just a list to get you started. Hopefully nobody feels left out
I find the pricing of Invisible Sun pretty crazy but I don’t have anything against it particularly.
I am put off by the “this is amazing and innovative” marketing, though, for three reasons. Firstly, because it’s annoying. Secondly, it isn’t innovative (except for those backer levels, granted). And more importantly, because I think setting up innovation as your primary goal/USP for a game is fundamentally misguided.
I find the pricing of Invisible Sun pretty crazy but I don’t have anything against it particularly.
I am put off by the “this is amazing and innovative” marketing, though, for three reasons. Firstly, because it’s annoying. Secondly, it isn’t innovative (except for those backer levels, granted). And more importantly, because I think setting up innovation as your primary goal/USP for a game is fundamentally misguided.
Here is an interesting take: http://trollsmyth.blogspot.com/2016/08/invisible-railways.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Trollsmyth+%28Trollsmyth%29
But I did not appreciate that by paying so much up front, you also get adventure ideas and props mailed to you as part of the experience. So its like a hobby subscription.
Here is an interesting take: http://trollsmyth.blogspot.com/2016/08/invisible-railways.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Trollsmyth+%28Trollsmyth%29
But I did not appreciate that by paying so much up front, you also get adventure ideas and props mailed to you as part of the experience. So its like a hobby subscription.
One way I am looking at it (and I think somewhere on the KS it’s hinted at) is that your whole game group could go in on the KS. Part of the concept is your players are more invested in the game outside the sessions around the table. One way to encourage that is to literally make them more invested by hinting that they should kick down a bit to purchase the experience that all will be participating in.
For me, I get D&D as a player once every 6 weeks and Dungeon World as a GM once every 3 weeks (all time estimates are approximate…). Even if I could persuade my group to jump on this experience, I still wouldn’t get the ROI that I’ve gotten from my $150 in D&D books and my $whatever I spent on the Dungeon World KS HC level.
Couple that with the fact my Numenara book from that KS is still wrapped in it’s shrink wrap. Seriously.
Mixed feelings, not sure if I want to see it succeed, since I’m not sure I want more projects, especially one I want to actually participate in, follow that model.
One way I am looking at it (and I think somewhere on the KS it’s hinted at) is that your whole game group could go in on the KS. Part of the concept is your players are more invested in the game outside the sessions around the table. One way to encourage that is to literally make them more invested by hinting that they should kick down a bit to purchase the experience that all will be participating in.
For me, I get D&D as a player once every 6 weeks and Dungeon World as a GM once every 3 weeks (all time estimates are approximate…). Even if I could persuade my group to jump on this experience, I still wouldn’t get the ROI that I’ve gotten from my $150 in D&D books and my $whatever I spent on the Dungeon World KS HC level.
Couple that with the fact my Numenara book from that KS is still wrapped in it’s shrink wrap. Seriously.
Mixed feelings, not sure if I want to see it succeed, since I’m not sure I want more projects, especially one I want to actually participate in, follow that model.
Chris Shorb One answer is that even if your group is not able to get together, you can still play the game: http://invisiblesunrpg.com/corona/changingthewayrpgsareplayed/
Expense aside, I do think Cook is attempting to move the RPG experience in a different way. Designing an RPG to involve the group out-of-game is basically trying to incorporate a little of what Obsidian Portal, Reddit, and G+ tries to do. This time your “circle” will just be your players and they can influence the game instead of just talk about it.
Certainly a different take on the experience.
Chris Shorb One answer is that even if your group is not able to get together, you can still play the game: http://invisiblesunrpg.com/corona/changingthewayrpgsareplayed/
Expense aside, I do think Cook is attempting to move the RPG experience in a different way. Designing an RPG to involve the group out-of-game is basically trying to incorporate a little of what Obsidian Portal, Reddit, and G+ tries to do. This time your “circle” will just be your players and they can influence the game instead of just talk about it.
Certainly a different take on the experience.
Tom McGrenery I’m with you on being a little suspicious about how ‘innovative’ this game is trying to be. I mean, it seems like the big ‘innovations’ are abstraction, love letters, and PbP. But, whatever, that’s how stuff like this goes; the indie crowd does a thing first and then a bigger player comes along and co-opts it. His approach with Numenera was similar.
Having taken a look at the project a little more closely, the main reason I would never play this (apart from the asking price) is how ornate the setting is. And I’m using ‘ornate’ in the term-of-art way we use it on our podcasts, meaning a setting that is stuffed with so many strange, specific details, there is no way a group can bring their shared head space together to properly role play it.
Tom McGrenery I’m with you on being a little suspicious about how ‘innovative’ this game is trying to be. I mean, it seems like the big ‘innovations’ are abstraction, love letters, and PbP. But, whatever, that’s how stuff like this goes; the indie crowd does a thing first and then a bigger player comes along and co-opts it. His approach with Numenera was similar.
Having taken a look at the project a little more closely, the main reason I would never play this (apart from the asking price) is how ornate the setting is. And I’m using ‘ornate’ in the term-of-art way we use it on our podcasts, meaning a setting that is stuffed with so many strange, specific details, there is no way a group can bring their shared head space together to properly role play it.
Jason Cordova The big thing missing from the sales pitch for me is why this stuff is in this particular game, even if we grant that it is innovative. If you have a play experience you want to create, and you need to invent something new to make it happen, great. If the parts you really need are old technology, also great. But “innovation” in and of itself, without serving a design goal, has no value.
Well, OK, novelty value. That is a thing. Nevertheless.
Setting-wise, yes. Loads of “lore” to learn, some of it secret, and that dreaded RPG marketing phrase, “oh, you can do anything!“
Jason Cordova The big thing missing from the sales pitch for me is why this stuff is in this particular game, even if we grant that it is innovative. If you have a play experience you want to create, and you need to invent something new to make it happen, great. If the parts you really need are old technology, also great. But “innovation” in and of itself, without serving a design goal, has no value.
Well, OK, novelty value. That is a thing. Nevertheless.
Setting-wise, yes. Loads of “lore” to learn, some of it secret, and that dreaded RPG marketing phrase, “oh, you can do anything!“
Tom McGrenery Yeah, I think good roleplaying wants constraints.
Tom McGrenery Yeah, I think good roleplaying wants constraints.
Tom McGrenery And I take your point about innovation. You’re right, it seems like the pitch is innovation for the sake of innovation? It’s a little weird.
Tom McGrenery And I take your point about innovation. You’re right, it seems like the pitch is innovation for the sake of innovation? It’s a little weird.
The idea of marrying PBP and active tabletop play is innovative. There is innovation in this game pitch.
The idea of marrying PBP and active tabletop play is innovative. There is innovation in this game pitch.
I read someone saying that the MCG enthusiast crowd is likely very trad, having started following him from MC’s 3.5 days. Cypher is pretty trad. This may be innovation for that crowd… dunno
I read someone saying that the MCG enthusiast crowd is likely very trad, having started following him from MC’s 3.5 days. Cypher is pretty trad. This may be innovation for that crowd… dunno
Richard Rogers How does that differ from bluebooking?
Richard Rogers How does that differ from bluebooking?
Also, as regards innovation… they’re not really clear on a bunch of stuff. It MIGHT have some interesting hidden economies in the game that haven’t been disclosed.
The side-scene stuff mentioned is something many of us have been doing for a long time. Flashbacks as well.
But recent games like Blades in the Dark, The Sprawl and (I believe, I haven’t played) the Leverage RPG, introduced some currency to regulate what happens in those flashbacks and how that influences the current gameplay. Maybe there’s something similar going on here.
Also, as regards innovation… they’re not really clear on a bunch of stuff. It MIGHT have some interesting hidden economies in the game that haven’t been disclosed.
The side-scene stuff mentioned is something many of us have been doing for a long time. Flashbacks as well.
But recent games like Blades in the Dark, The Sprawl and (I believe, I haven’t played) the Leverage RPG, introduced some currency to regulate what happens in those flashbacks and how that influences the current gameplay. Maybe there’s something similar going on here.
It doesn’t necessarily differ from bluebooking or other home-brewed practices that exist out there, Tom McGrenery, but baking it into the game feels like an innovation to me. As an avid PBPer who is currently playing a live game with PBP between sessions, it’s certainly an exciting thing for me.
It’s innovation like an Apple product, I guess. Sure, Android has been doing XYZ feature for 6 months or more, but now it’s in the Apple whats-it and it’s sleek and approachable to newcomers and so more folks will enjoy this thing we already know can be great.
I chalk it up to innovation in my book.
It doesn’t necessarily differ from bluebooking or other home-brewed practices that exist out there, Tom McGrenery, but baking it into the game feels like an innovation to me. As an avid PBPer who is currently playing a live game with PBP between sessions, it’s certainly an exciting thing for me.
It’s innovation like an Apple product, I guess. Sure, Android has been doing XYZ feature for 6 months or more, but now it’s in the Apple whats-it and it’s sleek and approachable to newcomers and so more folks will enjoy this thing we already know can be great.
I chalk it up to innovation in my book.
Richard Rogers by “Bluebooking” do you mean this, swiped from some law page: “The process of editing legal text so that assertions are supported by citations that conform to nationally accepted standards codified in The Bluebook”
Richard Rogers by “Bluebooking” do you mean this, swiped from some law page: “The process of editing legal text so that assertions are supported by citations that conform to nationally accepted standards codified in The Bluebook”
An other way of looking at this RPG is via video games. If you and 4 of your friend want to play Overwatch together, each of you has to pay $50-60 dollars which totals to $225-300. Which is in line with this Kickstarter.
An other way of looking at this RPG is via video games. If you and 4 of your friend want to play Overwatch together, each of you has to pay $50-60 dollars which totals to $225-300. Which is in line with this Kickstarter.
Chris Shorb You’re giving me terrible flashbacks to my law journal days.
Chris Shorb You’re giving me terrible flashbacks to my law journal days.
Chris Shorbâ It’s a thing that was popularised in the 90/00s by White Wolf, but predates that, where you do side scenes via email or forum, or – and hence the name – in a shared actual notebook.
I first read about it in (I think) Mage, and at the time thought “What’s the point of that? Just talk to the GM the next day.” Things are different in high school.
Chris Shorbâ It’s a thing that was popularised in the 90/00s by White Wolf, but predates that, where you do side scenes via email or forum, or – and hence the name – in a shared actual notebook.
I first read about it in (I think) Mage, and at the time thought “What’s the point of that? Just talk to the GM the next day.” Things are different in high school.