Lets begin today’s rant by saying this is all just opinion and however you chose to run your game is fine. I can totally understand why you may not want to focus on ugly realities in a made up fantasy land. The way I chose to run things is in no way more “realistic” or “correct” than anyone else. That being said, I find it interesting that I and my players often start off with very different assumptions about human nature for the NPCs in my settings. Maybe I am just a weirdo.
When I run a game, I generally set it in a medieval type low magic setting. Most of the NPCs in a village are probably uneducated, superstitious peasants. The people in power are generally just the jerks who managed to beat everyone else into submission. I am not saying all my NPCs are evil, they are just… human. And every once in awhile you will find a nice person in there but he might be nice because he wants something from you.
Think about life in ye-olde times (not that long ago really) where most people never traveled farther than the next village and had less than a middle school education. Worked all day to barely survive. Were under constant threat of raiding, plague and taxation. These people knew less than a hundred other people, and probably didn’t get along with all of those.
Now a player party walks into town. Some of them are dressed strangely or are obviously from foreign lands and other races. Most of them are heavily armed. A few might openly consort with otherworldly forces. They generally cause trouble or come before or after some big calamity. Why would you, as a villager, look favorably on these strangers? If you are the guy in charge, why would you tolerate their presence?
Here is a couple common examples:
1. The players have just killed a dragon-like creature and carry its loot horde into the nearest village. They expect to be treated like kings and resupply. But there already is a king. He wants to know where they got that treasure. Was it on his lands? Have they paid taxes? As far as he is concerned it is up to him whether or not they have any right to it. I’m not trying to be a jerk or sabotage their victory. I think the players just gave me a golden opportunity by flashing wealth and I am interested to see how they deal with the problem. One of the best solutions was a player pretending to be a foreign noble from the elven kingdom. He made the king (a local baron really) feel important and put himself on equal terms.
2. The players break an NPC out of prison during the night. For story reasons they can’t just run off so they stash her away and plan to plead innocence in the morning. The guards have no proof that they are involved right? But do they need proof? This is not a modern American court system and those dirty strangers look mighty suspicious. There is no concept of “innocent until proven guilty” and if they turn out to be wrong who will punish them for hanging a bunch of murder-hobos. Not to mention they will get to confiscate any equipment or loot. And they did arrive right before the incident… This normally ends in violence, but once went to a court-like scene.
3. A tribe of natives shows up and kills the people attacking the party. They then tie up and lead the players to their village. The enemy of my enemy is my friend right? We just need to explain the situation right? Why are they boiling that big cauldron of water over there? Maybe you can sweet talk these people but I think it is a mistake to assume that they are the “good guys” because they attacked some other “bad guys”. Maybe they don’t think you are evil, they just think you are different. You are not “the people” so you are free game.
It might be that players assume the natural setting for people is “good” or even “lawful good”. They expect to be given a mission from the good king to defeat the evil dragon. But in my settings (and the books they are based on) the people’s alignment is “human”, maybe “ignorant human”. That good king is just a local dictator who hired a bunch of mercenaries to exterminate a pest. This is probably where things like the tone discussion or CATS document should shine and they certainly help. I try to explain this to my players but I think there is still a lot of misunderstanding that can arise when players and GM approach their fantasy world from different directions and start with different assumptions. What do yall think? Do you have similar issues? Or am I just being difficult or a downer? Also, there is no real advice here so it may not fit well in the “how to suck less” section but I think this is something to consider when trying to make compelling settings.
I totally get you on this, Daniel Fowler. I find ‘idyllic’ villages full of people to serve as fodder for the hero’s needs to be pretty boring.
I let system set a bit more tone for me: In Dungeon World, I’m trying to portray a fantasy world, so I go easy on painting dark human nature and focus more on external threats. The AW Fallen Empires hack, however, is the total opposite. Torchbearer really sets the players up to be outcasts by nature of their dungeon-delving compulsions, so interacting with the locals often presents complications.
Historical accuracy isn’t much of a concern (though seriously, if you all drop 100 gold in this tiny hamlet, you will destroy their local economy), but certainly setting a tone that reflects what is important and interesting in the system’s setting is quite important.
I totally get you on this, Daniel Fowler. I find ‘idyllic’ villages full of people to serve as fodder for the hero’s needs to be pretty boring.
I let system set a bit more tone for me: In Dungeon World, I’m trying to portray a fantasy world, so I go easy on painting dark human nature and focus more on external threats. The AW Fallen Empires hack, however, is the total opposite. Torchbearer really sets the players up to be outcasts by nature of their dungeon-delving compulsions, so interacting with the locals often presents complications.
Historical accuracy isn’t much of a concern (though seriously, if you all drop 100 gold in this tiny hamlet, you will destroy their local economy), but certainly setting a tone that reflects what is important and interesting in the system’s setting is quite important.
This is the world I often want to play in but rarely do due to peoples’ visions of fantasy worlds.
This is the world I often want to play in but rarely do due to peoples’ visions of fantasy worlds.
I would say this is something to talk about with the players before you start out. Because what you describe, while a good setting, doesn’t play into the power fantasy that is traditional FRPGs.
I would say this is something to talk about with the players before you start out. Because what you describe, while a good setting, doesn’t play into the power fantasy that is traditional FRPGs.
I do generally discuss this stuff with players but I think a lot of them still have trouble getting on the same page because of the traditional fantasy expectations. I often feel that they think I am being unreasonable or just trying to give them a hard time.
I do generally discuss this stuff with players but I think a lot of them still have trouble getting on the same page because of the traditional fantasy expectations. I often feel that they think I am being unreasonable or just trying to give them a hard time.
Yes, definitely. I can completely understand both your “grittier” setting as well as their wish for the power fantasy to be upheld. It’s just that, of course– a fantasy.
Yes, definitely. I can completely understand both your “grittier” setting as well as their wish for the power fantasy to be upheld. It’s just that, of course– a fantasy.
Daniel Fowler I love that kind of setting. Consequences abound! Lying! Deceit! Treachery! A character and his money are soon parted! I guess the trick, other than working expectations up front, is giving them a “Are you sure you want to do X in front of the shady town guards, who’ve proably never seen Y before?” so they are reminded that things may not be as rosy as they expect. Also, I think a lot of the problem stems from the typical murder-hobo DnD expectations. Or do you have this issue often with non-trad players also?
Daniel Fowler I love that kind of setting. Consequences abound! Lying! Deceit! Treachery! A character and his money are soon parted! I guess the trick, other than working expectations up front, is giving them a “Are you sure you want to do X in front of the shady town guards, who’ve proably never seen Y before?” so they are reminded that things may not be as rosy as they expect. Also, I think a lot of the problem stems from the typical murder-hobo DnD expectations. Or do you have this issue often with non-trad players also?
A bit relevant, Daniel Fowler: I’m actually starting up a fantasy campaign for the Pocket-Sized Play podcast using Beyond the Wall and addressing some of these issues. I was inspired by discussion around what feminist fantasy meant and challenging that fantasy settings equal ‘power fantasies’ of conquest, advancement, and dominion.
The hope is to focus on humanity, for lack of a better term, and tell smaller stories around humility, wisdom, sacrifice, and all that good stuff. That means focusing on the reality of human needs and the interactions that come about from them, like the reality of fantasy towns that you discussed above. But it has required finding the right system and having those upfront discussions.
I’ve found it helpful to have some media references to shorthand this discussion a bit, usually referencing some Studio Ghibli or Ursula Le Guin to help get everyone onboard.
A bit relevant, Daniel Fowler: I’m actually starting up a fantasy campaign for the Pocket-Sized Play podcast using Beyond the Wall and addressing some of these issues. I was inspired by discussion around what feminist fantasy meant and challenging that fantasy settings equal ‘power fantasies’ of conquest, advancement, and dominion.
The hope is to focus on humanity, for lack of a better term, and tell smaller stories around humility, wisdom, sacrifice, and all that good stuff. That means focusing on the reality of human needs and the interactions that come about from them, like the reality of fantasy towns that you discussed above. But it has required finding the right system and having those upfront discussions.
I’ve found it helpful to have some media references to shorthand this discussion a bit, usually referencing some Studio Ghibli or Ursula Le Guin to help get everyone onboard.
Tim B Le Guin’s essays in Dancing at the Edge of the World came to mind when I read your second paragraph!
Tim B Le Guin’s essays in Dancing at the Edge of the World came to mind when I read your second paragraph!
Stephanie Bryant You got it! 😉
Stephanie Bryant You got it! 😉
I’m a bit more inclined to go with people having motivations that are hard for the PCs to figure out rather than everyone being just selfish or afraid of the other.
As a player I’d have serious problems with the cannibal bit, but that’s not related to your point.
I’m a bit more inclined to go with people having motivations that are hard for the PCs to figure out rather than everyone being just selfish or afraid of the other.
As a player I’d have serious problems with the cannibal bit, but that’s not related to your point.
Christopher Meid Noted.
Christopher Meid Noted.
Ari Black Oops. Now I’m in for it.
Ari Black Oops. Now I’m in for it.
Tim B I’m not sure what you mean by “compulsions,” unless you mean that they are compelled to dungeon delve because they can’t participate in the economy in any other way…
Tim B I’m not sure what you mean by “compulsions,” unless you mean that they are compelled to dungeon delve because they can’t participate in the economy in any other way…
Shane Liebling I think he means that anyone who willingly climbs down into a cave filled with flesh eating monsters and towering dragons is a little weird. Normal people are probably well advised to steer clear and lock up their kids
Shane Liebling I think he means that anyone who willingly climbs down into a cave filled with flesh eating monsters and towering dragons is a little weird. Normal people are probably well advised to steer clear and lock up their kids
Well actually… The thing about Torchbearer in particular (and it is something I really like but wish they did more with) is that it is very explicit that you’re dungeon delving because there are no other ways for you to make money. This is all you’ve got.
Well actually… The thing about Torchbearer in particular (and it is something I really like but wish they did more with) is that it is very explicit that you’re dungeon delving because there are no other ways for you to make money. This is all you’ve got.
I guess what I would like to find out is were this difference of assumptions comes from. I never decided to play differently then normal. I assumed this way was natural. Does this preference come from our history with books, films, other games? Or something else?
I guess what I would like to find out is were this difference of assumptions comes from. I never decided to play differently then normal. I assumed this way was natural. Does this preference come from our history with books, films, other games? Or something else?
I’ve found the difference primarily comes from other games, in particular, D who shall not be named. And it can be a challenge when the players expect that the world exists primarily to service their characters.
Communication with new players, or those who are unfamiliar with the “premise” of your world can be tricky. After all, a new gaming group relationship is like dating. You want to be honest, but not so honest that you don’t get a second date. Unfortunately, players and GM don’t always hear each other when those initial conversation happen, because they want to get to the “real” date, i.e. the RP session.
I mean, everything you said about the reactions of the villagers makes sense from a fictional perspective. But not every fictional perspective. I personally can’t imagine a world where hundreds of different troupes of adventurers manage to eke out a living. I likewise can’t really imagine power-mad people building labyrinthine lairs full of traps and creatures, somehow arranging for their care and feeding for hundreds of years, etc. But these are tropes that the game industry has nurtured us on, and it’s stuff that (at one time or another) most of us have managed to suspend our disbelief to enjoy.
But now we’ve got Game of Thrones, and a few other examples of gritty worlds, and many of us are feeling vindicated with more “realistic” settings. But there has to be some middle ground, and a period of adjustment, I think.
Maybe that first village is one that adventurers have frequented before, and the people are suspicious, but not rude or antagonistic. Perhaps they are savvy enough to recognize a source of income when they see it, and are actually overly friendly. Perhaps the PC’s get drugged and robbed. Perhaps they get pressured by the local magistrate. But it should be something that helps them transition from D who shall not be named to a grittier setting. Especially when it becomes clear that there’s been a misunderstanding of expectations. Just my humble opinion.
I’ve found the difference primarily comes from other games, in particular, D who shall not be named. And it can be a challenge when the players expect that the world exists primarily to service their characters.
Communication with new players, or those who are unfamiliar with the “premise” of your world can be tricky. After all, a new gaming group relationship is like dating. You want to be honest, but not so honest that you don’t get a second date. Unfortunately, players and GM don’t always hear each other when those initial conversation happen, because they want to get to the “real” date, i.e. the RP session.
I mean, everything you said about the reactions of the villagers makes sense from a fictional perspective. But not every fictional perspective. I personally can’t imagine a world where hundreds of different troupes of adventurers manage to eke out a living. I likewise can’t really imagine power-mad people building labyrinthine lairs full of traps and creatures, somehow arranging for their care and feeding for hundreds of years, etc. But these are tropes that the game industry has nurtured us on, and it’s stuff that (at one time or another) most of us have managed to suspend our disbelief to enjoy.
But now we’ve got Game of Thrones, and a few other examples of gritty worlds, and many of us are feeling vindicated with more “realistic” settings. But there has to be some middle ground, and a period of adjustment, I think.
Maybe that first village is one that adventurers have frequented before, and the people are suspicious, but not rude or antagonistic. Perhaps they are savvy enough to recognize a source of income when they see it, and are actually overly friendly. Perhaps the PC’s get drugged and robbed. Perhaps they get pressured by the local magistrate. But it should be something that helps them transition from D who shall not be named to a grittier setting. Especially when it becomes clear that there’s been a misunderstanding of expectations. Just my humble opinion.
Played in a game like that with a DM who wasn’t all that experienced. He pulled that shit with us… and then was quite surprised when we destroyed the village and massacred the guards. The local noble fled in the night before we could get to him. Oh, and the villagers were too busy putting or the fires that we had set to go off on a time delay — half the town (including the food warehouses) that frigid winter’s night. The DM wanted Gritty… we have him GRITTY.The DM gave up after that.
Played in a game like that with a DM who wasn’t all that experienced. He pulled that shit with us… and then was quite surprised when we destroyed the village and massacred the guards. The local noble fled in the night before we could get to him. Oh, and the villagers were too busy putting or the fires that we had set to go off on a time delay — half the town (including the food warehouses) that frigid winter’s night. The DM wanted Gritty… we have him GRITTY.The DM gave up after that.