Do you have any descriptive words or terms for the concept of taking narrative control or establishing truths? I want to teach my stepson about how different games give participants different levels of control and how there can be rules, mechanics or social contracts restricting or encouraging it.
“Invent”, “take narrative control”, just “take control”, “establish truths”, just “establish”? Is “take narrative control” the most used term?
In a couple of games, I’ve used the term “authority” or “narrative authority” to establish that something stated is absolutely true & inviolate; when you “have authority” or “use authority”, what you say can’t be contradicted, only built upon.
In a couple of games, I’ve used the term “authority” or “narrative authority” to establish that something stated is absolutely true & inviolate; when you “have authority” or “use authority”, what you say can’t be contradicted, only built upon.
Narrative and narrate are problematic because their use in RPGs isn’t really consistent with what they mean in say, literature or film. I prefer “describe X” or “tell how Y”.
That more easily brings us back to the central conversation of play, rather than weird control and authority claims that only work with a number of unstated constraints.
Narrative and narrate are problematic because their use in RPGs isn’t really consistent with what they mean in say, literature or film. I prefer “describe X” or “tell how Y”.
That more easily brings us back to the central conversation of play, rather than weird control and authority claims that only work with a number of unstated constraints.
You could always use metaphors for that “narrative control”, like the ‘Author’s Hat’ (if I’m wearing it now, I set the cards) or the ‘Baton’ (whoever is holding it now has narration privilege). But as I don’t know how old your stepson is or how experienced he is with RPGs, so these pieces of advice might seem silly. I just think that the less technical the language you use, the easier to grasp it might be.
You could always use metaphors for that “narrative control”, like the ‘Author’s Hat’ (if I’m wearing it now, I set the cards) or the ‘Baton’ (whoever is holding it now has narration privilege). But as I don’t know how old your stepson is or how experienced he is with RPGs, so these pieces of advice might seem silly. I just think that the less technical the language you use, the easier to grasp it might be.
Mendel Schmiedekamp Now that you mention it, it makes sense to use “describe” and “tell” rather than “narrate”. But the words used during the conversation might be different to the words we use to explain the concepts outside of it. I’m unable to unpack your last sentence though. Can you clarify?
They way I see it, there are two ways to contribute: Suggesting or establishing. When suggesting you avoid stepping on other participants authority or visions, but establishing makes things move faster. Knowing when it’s best to suggest and when to establish is not always obvious, especially not when the areas of authority are shared between the participants and the mechanics or loosely defined. That’s why I think it’s useful to be able to explain the concepts.
Sergio Maximo Jr. He’s almost ten. We use fancy words sometimes and metaphors can be useful, but binary states like having the baton or not is limited when you’re describing overlapping areas of authority.
I’m also just curious about the terminology for my own “research”. If I can make sense of it, I can explain it in a way that he understands.
Another term I’ve used in the past is “making things up”. Just in this post it looks like I’m leaning towards “establishing”.
Mendel Schmiedekamp Now that you mention it, it makes sense to use “describe” and “tell” rather than “narrate”. But the words used during the conversation might be different to the words we use to explain the concepts outside of it. I’m unable to unpack your last sentence though. Can you clarify?
They way I see it, there are two ways to contribute: Suggesting or establishing. When suggesting you avoid stepping on other participants authority or visions, but establishing makes things move faster. Knowing when it’s best to suggest and when to establish is not always obvious, especially not when the areas of authority are shared between the participants and the mechanics or loosely defined. That’s why I think it’s useful to be able to explain the concepts.
Sergio Maximo Jr. He’s almost ten. We use fancy words sometimes and metaphors can be useful, but binary states like having the baton or not is limited when you’re describing overlapping areas of authority.
I’m also just curious about the terminology for my own “research”. If I can make sense of it, I can explain it in a way that he understands.
Another term I’ve used in the past is “making things up”. Just in this post it looks like I’m leaning towards “establishing”.
My player is really assertive, which I love, but he needs to learn to respect boundaries so the sentence I’m going to use most is probably: “You’re establishing outside of your authority again, please phrase it as a suggestion or trigger the moves that allow you to establish.”
My player is really assertive, which I love, but he needs to learn to respect boundaries so the sentence I’m going to use most is probably: “You’re establishing outside of your authority again, please phrase it as a suggestion or trigger the moves that allow you to establish.”
One of the reasons I don’t think authority or control are good metaphors for this is that, as you describe, rarely does this translate to complete authority or control over whatever it is. Rather properly executing it requires nuance and back and forth – if only because areas of fictional “authority” overlap and interact all the time.
One of the reasons I don’t think authority or control are good metaphors for this is that, as you describe, rarely does this translate to complete authority or control over whatever it is. Rather properly executing it requires nuance and back and forth – if only because areas of fictional “authority” overlap and interact all the time.
Indeed, it is something like the idea of Right of Way. No one has perfect Right of Way, but there are rules for when you grant it to others. So, it’s not so much that you have the authority to determine something in the story, it’s that in the conversation everyone else should be deferring to you about this matter, where possible. Something like character sovereignty might preclude that deference, and something like an X-card definitely does.
Indeed, it is something like the idea of Right of Way. No one has perfect Right of Way, but there are rules for when you grant it to others. So, it’s not so much that you have the authority to determine something in the story, it’s that in the conversation everyone else should be deferring to you about this matter, where possible. Something like character sovereignty might preclude that deference, and something like an X-card definitely does.
Really interesting discussion here.
Really interesting discussion here.
Authority doesn’t mean dictatorship though. People with authority in society still have guidelines to follow so your example about right of way could be extended to the concept of authority.
Is it better to say you’re “in charge” of an area of fiction? You have some responsibilities and some autonomy, but there are rules and a social contract that comes first. There’s layers and layers of restrictions starting with expectations about decent human behavior.
Autonomy, management, executive something… Too corporate?
Authority doesn’t mean dictatorship though. People with authority in society still have guidelines to follow so your example about right of way could be extended to the concept of authority.
Is it better to say you’re “in charge” of an area of fiction? You have some responsibilities and some autonomy, but there are rules and a social contract that comes first. There’s layers and layers of restrictions starting with expectations about decent human behavior.
Autonomy, management, executive something… Too corporate?
Hierarchies handle authority (especially overlapping authority) by chains of command (deferring to a higher authority), checks (e.g. oversight, partial authority requiring compromises), overriding duties (e.g. the moral responsibilities of a soldier to refuse an illegal order), and subtle social expectations and subversions.
RPGs don’t have a complex hierarchy. They don’t have the check and balances or chains of command. Instead their “higher authority” is the conversation, the social dynamics of the players. It seems backwards to use metaphors of authority, in a domain where everything builds from what is the subtle, most invisible part of more real world examples of authority – you are practically guaranteeing that people learning about RPG social dynamics will have exaggerated expectations of control and power.
I somewhat prefer responsibility language to authority language, but really you need to start with the core activity – which is collaboration and conversation. Without that responsibilities risk becoming an overwhelming demand, just as authority becomes an untenable promise of control.
Hierarchies handle authority (especially overlapping authority) by chains of command (deferring to a higher authority), checks (e.g. oversight, partial authority requiring compromises), overriding duties (e.g. the moral responsibilities of a soldier to refuse an illegal order), and subtle social expectations and subversions.
RPGs don’t have a complex hierarchy. They don’t have the check and balances or chains of command. Instead their “higher authority” is the conversation, the social dynamics of the players. It seems backwards to use metaphors of authority, in a domain where everything builds from what is the subtle, most invisible part of more real world examples of authority – you are practically guaranteeing that people learning about RPG social dynamics will have exaggerated expectations of control and power.
I somewhat prefer responsibility language to authority language, but really you need to start with the core activity – which is collaboration and conversation. Without that responsibilities risk becoming an overwhelming demand, just as authority becomes an untenable promise of control.
Mendel Schmiedekamp That makes sense. Responsibility is a much better word. It puts the focus on your responsibility to cooperate and uphold the social contract rather than having a right to control. And I see how authority language can be distracting even though it’s technically descriptive enough.
It’s hard to isolate the conversation from responsibilities though. You can only get so far explaining collaboration and the conversation before areas of responsibility come up.
When you say that we need to start with the core activity, do you mean to say that the concept needs to be understood first chronologically or are you just saying that role-playing is first of all a conversation and that responsibility and restrictions are there to serve the conversation?
Thanks for being patient with me.
Mendel Schmiedekamp That makes sense. Responsibility is a much better word. It puts the focus on your responsibility to cooperate and uphold the social contract rather than having a right to control. And I see how authority language can be distracting even though it’s technically descriptive enough.
It’s hard to isolate the conversation from responsibilities though. You can only get so far explaining collaboration and the conversation before areas of responsibility come up.
When you say that we need to start with the core activity, do you mean to say that the concept needs to be understood first chronologically or are you just saying that role-playing is first of all a conversation and that responsibility and restrictions are there to serve the conversation?
Thanks for being patient with me.
Definitely the later, role-playing is first of all a social activity, usually a conversation, which gets primed by the use of constraints, responsibilities, and unpredictable inputs.
Definitely the later, role-playing is first of all a social activity, usually a conversation, which gets primed by the use of constraints, responsibilities, and unpredictable inputs.