There is a G+ conversation consuming the RPG creatives right now involving how much freelancers should be paid, and just the economics of the industry in general. It doesn’t directly concern most of us, but Jesus Christ, it has been eye-opening to follow. These are vanishingly small amounts of money at stake! I will make a point to stop complaining about $100 Kickstarters and just dutifully hand over my money from now on. It’s the least I can do as a consumer with a reasonable amount of disposable income.
There is a G+ conversation consuming the RPG creatives right now involving how much freelancers should be paid, and…
There is a G+ conversation consuming the RPG creatives right now involving how much freelancers should be paid, and…
Link to the conversation?
Link to the conversation?
Honestly, there are so many threads. I happen to have a bunch of these folks in my Circles, so they pop up in my feed. That said, search for Ryan Macklin, David Hill, and Mark Diaz Truman. You’ll find others.
Honestly, there are so many threads. I happen to have a bunch of these folks in my Circles, so they pop up in my feed. That said, search for Ryan Macklin, David Hill, and Mark Diaz Truman. You’ll find others.
I linked to a few key ones here:
https://plus.google.com/+TimJensen/posts/UqavEBHMuK2
I linked to a few key ones here:
https://plus.google.com/+TimJensen/posts/UqavEBHMuK2
Well, that’s awful.
I like the “tip the game designer” idea over here: https://plus.google.com/+JamieFristrom/posts/ZY5NtoWgcC2
But that mostly helps out with independent game designers, and doesn’t really touch on the freelance side of things, where the idea gets much trickier to implement.
Well, that’s awful.
I like the “tip the game designer” idea over here: https://plus.google.com/+JamieFristrom/posts/ZY5NtoWgcC2
But that mostly helps out with independent game designers, and doesn’t really touch on the freelance side of things, where the idea gets much trickier to implement.
I read a bit about it on a forum somewhere between 6 and 12 months ago. Someone had listed the standard contract payments for most of the big publishers to your run of the mill freelancer and as you said it’s amazingly little. There aren’t many people in this industry who are making their living doing it.
I actually overheard a phone conversation when I was at Gencon recently and the person was saying that they were speaking to a publisher about selling their game to them and were excited that they were going to offer $8000 to buy it outright but the publisher had backed out for various reasons. I’m sure the the amount of hours that went into their game make that amount miniscule on a per hour basis. I guess those who do it, do it because they are passionate about it. It’s that passion that I enjoy supporting with the independents.
I read a bit about it on a forum somewhere between 6 and 12 months ago. Someone had listed the standard contract payments for most of the big publishers to your run of the mill freelancer and as you said it’s amazingly little. There aren’t many people in this industry who are making their living doing it.
I actually overheard a phone conversation when I was at Gencon recently and the person was saying that they were speaking to a publisher about selling their game to them and were excited that they were going to offer $8000 to buy it outright but the publisher had backed out for various reasons. I’m sure the the amount of hours that went into their game make that amount miniscule on a per hour basis. I guess those who do it, do it because they are passionate about it. It’s that passion that I enjoy supporting with the independents.
Here is the Ryan Macklin post:
http://ryanmacklin.com/2015/08/on-freelancers-their-incentives/
Here is the link to the David Hill post:
http://machineageproductions.net/wpmocha/per-word-rates-for-games-need-to-go/
I find it very sad that most of the money spent on RPGs do not go to the creators. They have to find some other way to eek out a living.
The best thing we can do as a community is to spread the word about good games, encourage those that can do so to buy games, and to donate directly to the creators when possible (and appropriate–i.e. no tip jar for intro games).
Here is the Ryan Macklin post:
http://ryanmacklin.com/2015/08/on-freelancers-their-incentives/
Here is the link to the David Hill post:
http://machineageproductions.net/wpmocha/per-word-rates-for-games-need-to-go/
I find it very sad that most of the money spent on RPGs do not go to the creators. They have to find some other way to eek out a living.
The best thing we can do as a community is to spread the word about good games, encourage those that can do so to buy games, and to donate directly to the creators when possible (and appropriate–i.e. no tip jar for intro games).
steven watkins One of the problems I have experienced when it comes to supporting indie designers is there is no easy way to direct people to their products. DriveThru is probably the closest thing, but then DriveThru gets a cut, and even then, many of the games we play aren’t available there.The Un-Store looks super-shady to the average person, to say nothing of the fact it is just a fucking mess. The Bundle of Holding is how a lot of my members are getting their indie RPG PDFs, but those are cut-rate prices and, in any case, meant for charity.
I am introducing people to new games three or four times a week, many of whom would purchase them, but I’m not sure how to easily direct them to the right place. I can do a better job of posting links in appropriate places, but something more unified would be terrific, especially since we have a lot of players who don’t actually follow us on G+ or listen to the podcast (I know – fucking ingrates).
steven watkins One of the problems I have experienced when it comes to supporting indie designers is there is no easy way to direct people to their products. DriveThru is probably the closest thing, but then DriveThru gets a cut, and even then, many of the games we play aren’t available there.The Un-Store looks super-shady to the average person, to say nothing of the fact it is just a fucking mess. The Bundle of Holding is how a lot of my members are getting their indie RPG PDFs, but those are cut-rate prices and, in any case, meant for charity.
I am introducing people to new games three or four times a week, many of whom would purchase them, but I’m not sure how to easily direct them to the right place. I can do a better job of posting links in appropriate places, but something more unified would be terrific, especially since we have a lot of players who don’t actually follow us on G+ or listen to the podcast (I know – fucking ingrates).
And then, AND THEN, I get a little miffed when, as a (low-level) tastemaker, I spread the good word about a game and that game’s designer doesn’t want to make it available for sale! Ok. I mean, I’m doing my part here.
Situations like that that make it easy for other people to say game designers are just doing it for artistic expression and/or fun, and so adequate payment isn’t necessary.
And then, AND THEN, I get a little miffed when, as a (low-level) tastemaker, I spread the good word about a game and that game’s designer doesn’t want to make it available for sale! Ok. I mean, I’m doing my part here.
Situations like that that make it easy for other people to say game designers are just doing it for artistic expression and/or fun, and so adequate payment isn’t necessary.
Jason Cordova I have some suggestions: one I’ve done and others I haven’t.
When I had experienced players in a group (that understood the industry), I put out piggy banks and the text of the “Tip your Game Designer.” I then split the donations between the games that were run, and found the places to pay the designers (paypal, drivethru, etc.) myself. It was better than nothing. 🙂
The other idea I had was that since the Gauntlet seems to have lots of new players for games, the group could take the orders and cash for the games that were played that session.
One delegated person could place one order for the group; lots of people jump at the chance to save on shipping.
Pick up your games at the next event after they arrive, and any books that aren’t picked up after a few months are donated to the group.
If that is too much work or risk, some passionate person could make a cheat sheet of the websites at which these games are sold.
Just line after line listing DriveThru, the UnStore (which is sketchy), IPR, etc.
Or even better, to a local store that has the games in stock or that would order them from a distributor.
This would make it a lot easier for the new players and for the organizers.
Hmmm, I may try this the next time I have an event.
Jason Cordova I have some suggestions: one I’ve done and others I haven’t.
When I had experienced players in a group (that understood the industry), I put out piggy banks and the text of the “Tip your Game Designer.” I then split the donations between the games that were run, and found the places to pay the designers (paypal, drivethru, etc.) myself. It was better than nothing. 🙂
The other idea I had was that since the Gauntlet seems to have lots of new players for games, the group could take the orders and cash for the games that were played that session.
One delegated person could place one order for the group; lots of people jump at the chance to save on shipping.
Pick up your games at the next event after they arrive, and any books that aren’t picked up after a few months are donated to the group.
If that is too much work or risk, some passionate person could make a cheat sheet of the websites at which these games are sold.
Just line after line listing DriveThru, the UnStore (which is sketchy), IPR, etc.
Or even better, to a local store that has the games in stock or that would order them from a distributor.
This would make it a lot easier for the new players and for the organizers.
Hmmm, I may try this the next time I have an event.
From the publisher side of things… we always tried to pay decent rates for work at White Wolf and made every effort to pay in a timely manner as well. But that’s 20 years in the past and pay rates have essentially been flat since then.
I like what Onyx Path does in its Kickstarters (for products including new editions of the WW games) — they offer bonuses to the writers and artists, etc. as stretch goals. The game does well? Bonus to the creators.
Unfortunately, there has been complaining about that kind of stretch goal because it doesn’t offer the backer/consumer anything extra. So to Jason’s original post, that’s when a consumer with a decent amount of disposable income should view the stretch goal as an opportunity to reward an otherwise likely underpaid creator.
From the publisher side of things… we always tried to pay decent rates for work at White Wolf and made every effort to pay in a timely manner as well. But that’s 20 years in the past and pay rates have essentially been flat since then.
I like what Onyx Path does in its Kickstarters (for products including new editions of the WW games) — they offer bonuses to the writers and artists, etc. as stretch goals. The game does well? Bonus to the creators.
Unfortunately, there has been complaining about that kind of stretch goal because it doesn’t offer the backer/consumer anything extra. So to Jason’s original post, that’s when a consumer with a decent amount of disposable income should view the stretch goal as an opportunity to reward an otherwise likely underpaid creator.
Stewart Wieck Bonuses are great, but paying by the word for game design is the root of the problem. Roleplaying games aren’t literature; they aren’t journalism. They are more like software. Just imagine if programmers were paid by the line of code. They would be incentivized to make software as bloated as possible (come to think of it, Microsoft and Samsung might still do this) instead of software that works.
Stewart Wieck Bonuses are great, but paying by the word for game design is the root of the problem. Roleplaying games aren’t literature; they aren’t journalism. They are more like software. Just imagine if programmers were paid by the line of code. They would be incentivized to make software as bloated as possible (come to think of it, Microsoft and Samsung might still do this) instead of software that works.
A word rate isn’t as much of a problem as it might seem and doesn’t lead to the word-bloat you suggest because the sizes of books are almost always determined at the time of the freelance assignment. This effectively leads to the pay being a flat rate of X dollars for a pre-established number of words at a specified rate.
And I’ll argue the “aren’t literature” part too. I agree that board game rules are more like software, but sections in RPGs about backstory, themes of a game, and more, especially fiction vignettes, can certainly aspire to a literary quality. Such sections can require deep-thinking and artful composition.
A word rate isn’t as much of a problem as it might seem and doesn’t lead to the word-bloat you suggest because the sizes of books are almost always determined at the time of the freelance assignment. This effectively leads to the pay being a flat rate of X dollars for a pre-established number of words at a specified rate.
And I’ll argue the “aren’t literature” part too. I agree that board game rules are more like software, but sections in RPGs about backstory, themes of a game, and more, especially fiction vignettes, can certainly aspire to a literary quality. Such sections can require deep-thinking and artful composition.
Stewart Wieck Perhaps book size should be determined after the game is finished. I mean, if you’re not done designing and playtesting, how do you know what the ideal length of the text should be? This is both an issue of creator compensation and quality control.
I see your point regarding games and literature; I over-generalised. I still think a lot of RPG rulebooks would benefit by being written more like board game rules.
Stewart Wieck Perhaps book size should be determined after the game is finished. I mean, if you’re not done designing and playtesting, how do you know what the ideal length of the text should be? This is both an issue of creator compensation and quality control.
I see your point regarding games and literature; I over-generalised. I still think a lot of RPG rulebooks would benefit by being written more like board game rules.
Ah, for book size I guess I was thinking supplements, not the core game. Agreed that is much more variable and not as pre-determined.
For core games from an independent creator, I’m in favor of a royalty, as done in book publishing.
Ah, for book size I guess I was thinking supplements, not the core game. Agreed that is much more variable and not as pre-determined.
For core games from an independent creator, I’m in favor of a royalty, as done in book publishing.