I’m currently reading through some OSR modules (I like to adapt them for DW) and I am reminded of DW’s great strength vis a vis Dungeons & Dragons: in DW, everything stays dangerous. For example, that goblin sneaking through the shadows, armed with a poisoned blade, might be extremely deadly to a 1st level D&D character, but a total pushover for a character of just two or three levels higher. In DW, that goblin remains dangerous throughout the life of your character, because that is what makes sense. All the training in the world shouldn’t prevent that goblin from sticking his dagger into your fucking stomach and poisoning you to death, and DW’s mechanics acknowledge that.
The reverse is true, too: in D&D, your 1st-level fighter has no chance against a dragon. But why not? If he has the Magic Sword of Farfanel, or whatever the fuck is required to kill the dragon, why shouldn’t he be able to have a shot at it? It’s not like the 20th-level D&D fighter spent 19 levels exclusively training to kill that dragon.
I know it’s silly to talk about “realism” in a fantasy game, but I’m starting to take Daniel Lewis’s point that “leveling-up” is a stupid concept, and in no way reflects how people in the real world advance in their chosen profession. Granted, DW characters still “level-up,” but they don’t really get “better.” They just get a few more options for ways to be awesome.
the level up system has always seemed to me like a crutch, a way to tangibly show that “yes, I have gotten better.”
I enjoy DW’s method of giving you more moves, or letting you use current moves in a better and cooler way. it seems like a better example of “It’s been harder than I thought, but I’ve gotten better. faster. stronger.”
the level up system has always seemed to me like a crutch, a way to tangibly show that “yes, I have gotten better.”
I enjoy DW’s method of giving you more moves, or letting you use current moves in a better and cooler way. it seems like a better example of “It’s been harder than I thought, but I’ve gotten better. faster. stronger.”
I always used to think I hated levels, but honestly it’s just perpetually escalating hit points (and the perpetually escalating modifiers that go with them). All the added complication gets you is ludicrous situations like the aforementioned.
I always used to think I hated levels, but honestly it’s just perpetually escalating hit points (and the perpetually escalating modifiers that go with them). All the added complication gets you is ludicrous situations like the aforementioned.
Mark Siwel That’s a great example of how you can get a really bizarre outcome in D&D (or, really, any trad RPG). The notion that a horde of fifty armed individuals can’t overpower a group of five people is completely stupid. In DW, on the other hand, my players would run like hell if that was what they were facing, because they know if they don’t, they’re offering me a Golden Opportunity, which might be one of DW’s most underrated rules.
For those who don’t know, a Golden Opportunity is when you, as the GM, have clearly spelled out danger, but the players rush into it anyway. It allows the GM to immediately make a move on the players. In the circumstance of facing-off against fifty angry villagers, that might mean swarming them and taking the party captive, or, if the villagers are intent on killing them, it might mean you instantly deal their damage (in this case, probably 1D6 + 49, meaning instant Last Breath roll).
Mark Siwel That’s a great example of how you can get a really bizarre outcome in D&D (or, really, any trad RPG). The notion that a horde of fifty armed individuals can’t overpower a group of five people is completely stupid. In DW, on the other hand, my players would run like hell if that was what they were facing, because they know if they don’t, they’re offering me a Golden Opportunity, which might be one of DW’s most underrated rules.
For those who don’t know, a Golden Opportunity is when you, as the GM, have clearly spelled out danger, but the players rush into it anyway. It allows the GM to immediately make a move on the players. In the circumstance of facing-off against fifty angry villagers, that might mean swarming them and taking the party captive, or, if the villagers are intent on killing them, it might mean you instantly deal their damage (in this case, probably 1D6 + 49, meaning instant Last Breath roll).
Also, I think this discussion highlights how D&D is not the answer OSR people are looking for (I’m tagging-in Doyle Tavener, because his thoughts are always interesting here).
Here is what I mean: As I mentioned, I am currently converting some LotFP modules/settings for some upcoming DW stuff. LotFP material emphasizes darkness, danger, and horror. But, the fact remains, a sufficiently high level D&D character could plow through one of those modules without much trouble, horrifying set pieces be damned! But, in DW, those modules (converted, mind you) stay dangerous forever. All those deliciously cryptic and awful beasties in Death Frost Doom stay dangerous no matter when I decide to use them in DW.
There is a practical aspect to it, as well: I buy lots of DCC modules. Each one of them is for a certain level party in DCC (which is, essentially, D&D). But, I get to ignore that level restriction, because I can use that stuff in my DW game no matter what level the characters are. There is a freedom and flexibility there that can’t be denied.
Also, I think this discussion highlights how D&D is not the answer OSR people are looking for (I’m tagging-in Doyle Tavener, because his thoughts are always interesting here).
Here is what I mean: As I mentioned, I am currently converting some LotFP modules/settings for some upcoming DW stuff. LotFP material emphasizes darkness, danger, and horror. But, the fact remains, a sufficiently high level D&D character could plow through one of those modules without much trouble, horrifying set pieces be damned! But, in DW, those modules (converted, mind you) stay dangerous forever. All those deliciously cryptic and awful beasties in Death Frost Doom stay dangerous no matter when I decide to use them in DW.
There is a practical aspect to it, as well: I buy lots of DCC modules. Each one of them is for a certain level party in DCC (which is, essentially, D&D). But, I get to ignore that level restriction, because I can use that stuff in my DW game no matter what level the characters are. There is a freedom and flexibility there that can’t be denied.
Jason Cordova, at least with LotFP, characters are very, very fragile, even at ‘higher’ levels (like 6-9th) so that death is really around the corner at any time.
Other D&D clones vary, but I will concede that you have to escalate the threat (less goblins, more dragons) with most D&D-ish systems. That’s definitely one of the strengths of DW. I am looking forward to playing it. 🙂
Jason Cordova, at least with LotFP, characters are very, very fragile, even at ‘higher’ levels (like 6-9th) so that death is really around the corner at any time.
Other D&D clones vary, but I will concede that you have to escalate the threat (less goblins, more dragons) with most D&D-ish systems. That’s definitely one of the strengths of DW. I am looking forward to playing it. 🙂
Doesn’t DnD provide leveling because the players don’t have any agency? And isn’t lack of leveling why some gamers hate Call of Cthuthu?
Doesn’t DnD provide leveling because the players don’t have any agency? And isn’t lack of leveling why some gamers hate Call of Cthuthu?
In my own experience, players have plenty of agency, they just hardly ever use it.
In my own experience, players have plenty of agency, they just hardly ever use it.
Doyle Tavener fair point. Restated: players can believe they will gain more agency when they level.
Doyle Tavener fair point. Restated: players can believe they will gain more agency when they level.
Aaron Scott I’d have to agree with that. It’s certainly true in the later editions.
Aaron Scott I’d have to agree with that. It’s certainly true in the later editions.
I believe the agency of a player going up as they level is a common fallacy. I’m encountering it a lot as I’m playing Pillars of Eternity, since many options are locked out due to attribute checks, and as far as I can tell, attributes only raise via item finding.
DW gives you explicit options at the very beginning, and as you level, codifies ways in which your character especially changes the world. A fighter may Bend Bars & Lift Gates, but anyone can try and do the same with a defy danger STR I would say. The fighter however gets a greater narrative control over the action though a codified rule of the game via his sheet action.
I believe the agency of a player going up as they level is a common fallacy. I’m encountering it a lot as I’m playing Pillars of Eternity, since many options are locked out due to attribute checks, and as far as I can tell, attributes only raise via item finding.
DW gives you explicit options at the very beginning, and as you level, codifies ways in which your character especially changes the world. A fighter may Bend Bars & Lift Gates, but anyone can try and do the same with a defy danger STR I would say. The fighter however gets a greater narrative control over the action though a codified rule of the game via his sheet action.
Ferrell Riley Well put on the BBLG versus Defy Danger STR.
Ferrell Riley Well put on the BBLG versus Defy Danger STR.
Ferrell Riley Although it’s probably more accurate to say the Fighter has more precisely defined positive outcomes with BBLG, whereas, on a Defy Danger 7-9 result, the GM can still fuck with you a little bit.
Ferrell Riley Although it’s probably more accurate to say the Fighter has more precisely defined positive outcomes with BBLG, whereas, on a Defy Danger 7-9 result, the GM can still fuck with you a little bit.