Despite playing more roleplaying games on a monthly basis than probably any other human on the planet, I don’t get too involved in forums or the various community wars (I’m too busy actually playing games – see how that works?)
That said, I occasionally follow a link or click on an article, and I’m regularly struck by how aggressively hostile a lot of folks in the OSR community can be. I mean really vicious, sexist, and homophobic stuff. What’s up with that?
I freely admit elements of the story game community can be pedantic and/or pretentious, but you rarely see outright vitriol.
I equate it to the cranky old man syndrome. Things were better in my day, this isn’t the America, or um game, we used to remember. I’m sure Obama is to blame in there somewhere. I think he ran over my dog when I lived in Chicago (not a true story about the dog). Some people love to pick sides and then rabidly defend it.
If I could find it again Fred Hicks of Evil Hat wrote a really great post on Google+ about this very sort of thing. He called out the lack of inclusion of new players, the overly aggressive behavior to keep a certain type of game or game play, and just the general lack of diversity in the community. While we’re experiencing a nice upswing in the size and diversity, it’s this other behavior that will drive it away when popularity begins to wane. There is a lot of great gaming to be had out there, more than in any time I can recall, it’s a shame some choose not to experience it.
I equate it to the cranky old man syndrome. Things were better in my day, this isn’t the America, or um game, we used to remember. I’m sure Obama is to blame in there somewhere. I think he ran over my dog when I lived in Chicago (not a true story about the dog). Some people love to pick sides and then rabidly defend it.
If I could find it again Fred Hicks of Evil Hat wrote a really great post on Google+ about this very sort of thing. He called out the lack of inclusion of new players, the overly aggressive behavior to keep a certain type of game or game play, and just the general lack of diversity in the community. While we’re experiencing a nice upswing in the size and diversity, it’s this other behavior that will drive it away when popularity begins to wane. There is a lot of great gaming to be had out there, more than in any time I can recall, it’s a shame some choose not to experience it.
I’ve seen the same behavior and have actually experienced it in the flesh when dealing with some of my more grognardistic comrades.
I’ve seen the same behavior and have actually experienced it in the flesh when dealing with some of my more grognardistic comrades.
Slightly off topic but when I got my technician license for HAM radio a long time ago (for a school thing). I heard that the rules had recently changed and I did not have to know mores-code to pass. apparently some veteran HAM operators think this means that anyone who passes the test since that date is not a “real” operator and should be ignored or chased out of channels. the point is people will fight over literally any difference. from “he is not a real person” to “he is not a true gamer”.
Personally I don’t think you can even call your system an RPG unless you have a table for the hit dice of every door made out of every conceivable material.
Slightly off topic but when I got my technician license for HAM radio a long time ago (for a school thing). I heard that the rules had recently changed and I did not have to know mores-code to pass. apparently some veteran HAM operators think this means that anyone who passes the test since that date is not a “real” operator and should be ignored or chased out of channels. the point is people will fight over literally any difference. from “he is not a real person” to “he is not a true gamer”.
Personally I don’t think you can even call your system an RPG unless you have a table for the hit dice of every door made out of every conceivable material.
It’s petty tribalism at it’s best. Everyone is trying to show that they’re part of an elite group, and that starts with running off the runts in a display of “power”.
It’s petty tribalism at it’s best. Everyone is trying to show that they’re part of an elite group, and that starts with running off the runts in a display of “power”.
And, of course, I don’t mean to suggest ALL members of the OSR community are this way (in fact, I quite enjoy the Carcosa community), but rather some members of that community seem to have a certain defensiveness that leads to vitriol. It’s very similar to what you see in video games from time-to-time.
And, of course, I don’t mean to suggest ALL members of the OSR community are this way (in fact, I quite enjoy the Carcosa community), but rather some members of that community seem to have a certain defensiveness that leads to vitriol. It’s very similar to what you see in video games from time-to-time.
All it boils down to is that those people have such a lack of passion for anything else in their life and therefore channel all their energies into protecting the honor of their mistress game, whatever it may be. When encountering such an individual, it can be helpful to realize they have nothing else going for them… awwwwhh
At least that’s been my experience
All it boils down to is that those people have such a lack of passion for anything else in their life and therefore channel all their energies into protecting the honor of their mistress game, whatever it may be. When encountering such an individual, it can be helpful to realize they have nothing else going for them… awwwwhh
At least that’s been my experience
As the token grognard in the Gauntlet, I believe I can add a few points to the discussion.
Lots of grognards are probably more conservative, if for no other reason that grognards skew older as a category.
(BTW, in my personal dictionary, grognards are those who have stuck with D&D or some other original RPG rules set through thick or thin and never really played anything else. OSR guys have played other games but are primarily interested on the original games and their clones . DIY gamers mostly use the old games but use a shitload of house rules and original content to get the sort of game they want. )
I know plenty of guys in all three categories who self-identify as leftist, liberal, etc. Including myself.
In regards to old-school guys criticizing others, I have a somewhat different perspective. Most of the time, I see all sorts of different gamers (including, but not limited to, Story gamers, 4E D&D fans, FATE gamers, Board gamers, and Miniature gamers) heckle OSR types as either reactionary, racist, exclusionary, sexist, homophobic and “simple-minded elfgame lovers'” simply based on the types of games they like to play. I am certain there are lots of people who play games who fall into these categories, but not because they play OSR style games.
As for the vitriol currently enveloping the interwebz, most of that is centered around Zak and the Pundit, who have made a lot of enemies, for various reasons, over the years. One can certainly have and even express a dislike for their methods, without saying things that are demonstrably false about them.
As the token grognard in the Gauntlet, I believe I can add a few points to the discussion.
Lots of grognards are probably more conservative, if for no other reason that grognards skew older as a category.
(BTW, in my personal dictionary, grognards are those who have stuck with D&D or some other original RPG rules set through thick or thin and never really played anything else. OSR guys have played other games but are primarily interested on the original games and their clones . DIY gamers mostly use the old games but use a shitload of house rules and original content to get the sort of game they want. )
I know plenty of guys in all three categories who self-identify as leftist, liberal, etc. Including myself.
In regards to old-school guys criticizing others, I have a somewhat different perspective. Most of the time, I see all sorts of different gamers (including, but not limited to, Story gamers, 4E D&D fans, FATE gamers, Board gamers, and Miniature gamers) heckle OSR types as either reactionary, racist, exclusionary, sexist, homophobic and “simple-minded elfgame lovers'” simply based on the types of games they like to play. I am certain there are lots of people who play games who fall into these categories, but not because they play OSR style games.
As for the vitriol currently enveloping the interwebz, most of that is centered around Zak and the Pundit, who have made a lot of enemies, for various reasons, over the years. One can certainly have and even express a dislike for their methods, without saying things that are demonstrably false about them.
I take issue with your statement, I am the only “TRUE” grognard in the gauntlet. Come back when you have created stats for all members and had them fight it out in WW2 kursk. We can compare notes. Btw congratulations Gary, currently leading by 20 kills.
I take issue with your statement, I am the only “TRUE” grognard in the gauntlet. Come back when you have created stats for all members and had them fight it out in WW2 kursk. We can compare notes. Btw congratulations Gary, currently leading by 20 kills.
Sir, I bow to your grognardiness.
Sir, I bow to your grognardiness.
Doyle Tavener I have since started to look into the furor over Zack S. and John Tarnowski (RPG Pundit), and have dug into their writings a little deeper, and I am struck by a few things:
1. They are very toxic individuals. I’m not inclined to hit the “censor” button on anyone, but the stuff they say is pretty icky, and clearly designed to get a rise out of people. I don’t think we need people like that in the hobby.
2. I’m surprised their supporters are willing to stridently defend them over accusations of homophobia and transphobia, while staying relatively silent on all the horrible things they definitely DO say.
3. There is a connection that is not being made by their supporters which I think is worthy of consideration: It seems like these guys (and Zak in particular) are willing to hound and harass people whenever and wherever they can, which can lead to people refusing to engage with them or insisting on anonymity. This, in turn, gets interpreted as “refusing to provide evidence,” or “making anonymous accusations,” when people are probably just trying to avoid harassment.
I wasn’t even aware of this controversy when I made my OP. I was commenting generally on things I had observed in places frequented by grognards and OSR folks. Now that I am aware of it, and having looked into the various accusations a bit, I find the whole situation entirely gross. It’s no wonder we have a hard time attracting people into this hobby.
Doyle Tavener I have since started to look into the furor over Zack S. and John Tarnowski (RPG Pundit), and have dug into their writings a little deeper, and I am struck by a few things:
1. They are very toxic individuals. I’m not inclined to hit the “censor” button on anyone, but the stuff they say is pretty icky, and clearly designed to get a rise out of people. I don’t think we need people like that in the hobby.
2. I’m surprised their supporters are willing to stridently defend them over accusations of homophobia and transphobia, while staying relatively silent on all the horrible things they definitely DO say.
3. There is a connection that is not being made by their supporters which I think is worthy of consideration: It seems like these guys (and Zak in particular) are willing to hound and harass people whenever and wherever they can, which can lead to people refusing to engage with them or insisting on anonymity. This, in turn, gets interpreted as “refusing to provide evidence,” or “making anonymous accusations,” when people are probably just trying to avoid harassment.
I wasn’t even aware of this controversy when I made my OP. I was commenting generally on things I had observed in places frequented by grognards and OSR folks. Now that I am aware of it, and having looked into the various accusations a bit, I find the whole situation entirely gross. It’s no wonder we have a hard time attracting people into this hobby.
And I say all of the above with the caveat that I have purchased (and quite enjoyed) Vornheim. It saddens me that the same person who made that terrific supplement has spent so much time spouting negativity into the world.
And I say all of the above with the caveat that I have purchased (and quite enjoyed) Vornheim. It saddens me that the same person who made that terrific supplement has spent so much time spouting negativity into the world.
Jason Cordova Having gamed with Zak and having had online conversations with him, I came to a different conclusion than you have. I don’t think demanding that one back up their claims in discourse and argumentation to be toxic.
As you note, I too don’t believe that he’s Trans or LGBT phobic. But that is exactly what he is being accused of.
The times he has disagreed with me about gaming matters, he simply said I was wrong and explained the reason why.
He saves the vitriol for those who makes claims that judgemental and/or moralistic, like the claim that Monte Cook’s monster, the Nibovian Wife, is sexist. Or that Kim Hyung Tae’s art should be censored because someone thinks it’s sexist.
The only other occasion I have seen him unleash the venom is when people accuse him of things that are simply not true. He calls those people all sorts of pejoratives. Does that make me uncomfortable? Sure. Does it inflame the passions, rather than calm them? Absolutely. Is it the manner in which I would conduct discourse? Probably not. But none of my reasons matter, because I am not the one being lied about.
I don’t think that is the same as harassing people, or even hounding them.
Does his ask his ‘G+ Posse’ to defend him? Yeah, but only that they ask those involved to back up what they say with evidence.
If you say to me “Obama is a socialist.”, and I say in return “Back it up.” and then you refuse to do so, or give me a bullshit answer that isn’t reasonable and I get all my my followers to confront you with this whenever you bring up Obama, does that make me a harasser or someone who does his best to confront lies?
Nobody likes being called a liar. Nobody likes having their favorite rationalizations or pet theories deflated. But if I say something stupid or meaningless or demonstrably untrue in a public forum, that’s the risk I take.
As for the Pundit, I know that he calls story gamers ‘swine’, and believes that the way that story games are played precludes them from being ‘real, ‘actual’ or ‘genuine’ RPGs. I presume (but do not know) that he does so to undermine the notion that story games are superior in form to trad RPGs.
Calling people Swine is bad. But it doesn’t reach the same level as calling them bigots, in my book.
Jason Cordova Having gamed with Zak and having had online conversations with him, I came to a different conclusion than you have. I don’t think demanding that one back up their claims in discourse and argumentation to be toxic.
As you note, I too don’t believe that he’s Trans or LGBT phobic. But that is exactly what he is being accused of.
The times he has disagreed with me about gaming matters, he simply said I was wrong and explained the reason why.
He saves the vitriol for those who makes claims that judgemental and/or moralistic, like the claim that Monte Cook’s monster, the Nibovian Wife, is sexist. Or that Kim Hyung Tae’s art should be censored because someone thinks it’s sexist.
The only other occasion I have seen him unleash the venom is when people accuse him of things that are simply not true. He calls those people all sorts of pejoratives. Does that make me uncomfortable? Sure. Does it inflame the passions, rather than calm them? Absolutely. Is it the manner in which I would conduct discourse? Probably not. But none of my reasons matter, because I am not the one being lied about.
I don’t think that is the same as harassing people, or even hounding them.
Does his ask his ‘G+ Posse’ to defend him? Yeah, but only that they ask those involved to back up what they say with evidence.
If you say to me “Obama is a socialist.”, and I say in return “Back it up.” and then you refuse to do so, or give me a bullshit answer that isn’t reasonable and I get all my my followers to confront you with this whenever you bring up Obama, does that make me a harasser or someone who does his best to confront lies?
Nobody likes being called a liar. Nobody likes having their favorite rationalizations or pet theories deflated. But if I say something stupid or meaningless or demonstrably untrue in a public forum, that’s the risk I take.
As for the Pundit, I know that he calls story gamers ‘swine’, and believes that the way that story games are played precludes them from being ‘real, ‘actual’ or ‘genuine’ RPGs. I presume (but do not know) that he does so to undermine the notion that story games are superior in form to trad RPGs.
Calling people Swine is bad. But it doesn’t reach the same level as calling them bigots, in my book.
Doyle Tavener Well, I think it’s their tone I’m taking issue with. The pejoratives aren’t necessary; they don’t lead to any kind of reasonable discourse. If you begin your argument by calling people “Dumbasses” or “Swine,” people aren’t likely to engage with you in a meaningful way. And it’s obvious that’s not their intent. They just want to have their corner of the internet where they get to call people names and rant about the things they disagree with. Fine. That’s their right.
Now, as for the accusations of homophobia and transphobia, I actually can’t even find them. Most everything I have found is just people thinking they are assholes. As best I can tell, the accusations of transphobia and homophobia are being highlighted the most by Zak and Pundit themselves – and it seems like they’re doing it in order to silence ALL of their critics. This is a pretty common rhetorical tactic.
Doyle Tavener Well, I think it’s their tone I’m taking issue with. The pejoratives aren’t necessary; they don’t lead to any kind of reasonable discourse. If you begin your argument by calling people “Dumbasses” or “Swine,” people aren’t likely to engage with you in a meaningful way. And it’s obvious that’s not their intent. They just want to have their corner of the internet where they get to call people names and rant about the things they disagree with. Fine. That’s their right.
Now, as for the accusations of homophobia and transphobia, I actually can’t even find them. Most everything I have found is just people thinking they are assholes. As best I can tell, the accusations of transphobia and homophobia are being highlighted the most by Zak and Pundit themselves – and it seems like they’re doing it in order to silence ALL of their critics. This is a pretty common rhetorical tactic.
Jason wrote:
They just want to have their corner of the internet where they get to call people names and rant about the things they disagree with.
I disagree about that. I think the evidence of their work (Vornheim, Arrow of Indra, Lords of Olympus, Zak’s blog, etc.) is indicative of wanting to carve out a space where they can discuss RPGs with some amount of logic and accountability. Not to mention the explicit declarations of such.
You are certainly free to disagree. I don’t have Zak’s investment in grinding away until the kernel of truth at the core of our souls are exposed.
As for the latest round of accusations, it started with the article that is refuted here:
http://the-real-seebs.tumblr.com/post/93651860353/how-dungeons-and-dragons-is-endorsing-the-darkest-parts
Jason wrote:
They just want to have their corner of the internet where they get to call people names and rant about the things they disagree with.
I disagree about that. I think the evidence of their work (Vornheim, Arrow of Indra, Lords of Olympus, Zak’s blog, etc.) is indicative of wanting to carve out a space where they can discuss RPGs with some amount of logic and accountability. Not to mention the explicit declarations of such.
You are certainly free to disagree. I don’t have Zak’s investment in grinding away until the kernel of truth at the core of our souls are exposed.
As for the latest round of accusations, it started with the article that is refuted here:
http://the-real-seebs.tumblr.com/post/93651860353/how-dungeons-and-dragons-is-endorsing-the-darkest-parts