Discussion topic: What will it take to grow RPGs as a hobby? Can they ever become a mainstream form of entertainment (such as video games)? Is it a conversation even worth having?
Discussion topic: What will it take to grow RPGs as a hobby?
Discussion topic: What will it take to grow RPGs as a hobby?
These days I tend to come down pretty close to the view in a few Grognardia posts: namely, that D&D at the height of its popularity scratched an itch that is for a lot of people nowadays completely scratched by computer “RPGs” like WoW and Skyrim and what not. I think there is and will always be people who enjoy what real tabletop RPGs can do that vidja games can’t, and they’ll find each other and/or have friends willing to join them for a good time.
So, no, I don’t think RPGs will ever be mainstream, but I also don’t think that means a dying hobby. The “long tail” effect of things like Google+ and on demand publishing means that niche hobbies have it better than ever.
These days I tend to come down pretty close to the view in a few Grognardia posts: namely, that D&D at the height of its popularity scratched an itch that is for a lot of people nowadays completely scratched by computer “RPGs” like WoW and Skyrim and what not. I think there is and will always be people who enjoy what real tabletop RPGs can do that vidja games can’t, and they’ll find each other and/or have friends willing to join them for a good time.
So, no, I don’t think RPGs will ever be mainstream, but I also don’t think that means a dying hobby. The “long tail” effect of things like Google+ and on demand publishing means that niche hobbies have it better than ever.
Jeff, i think has a point, that niche hobbies are stronger then ever now. And although I think it’s easier for publishers to get to the market, i think at the same time, it’s hard for them to find customers, due to the decline of RPG’s as a main stream hobby, among those to like to be non-main stream.
Most importantly, the decline of the ‘game store’. Most stores I go into now, rarely have anyone playing anything other than MTG or PC rentals. There isn’t anyone just milling around, seeing what others are playing and getting to know other gamers anymore.
For me, there needs to be a balance of RPG’s distributed and played in game stores, to reach the masses, and to share the fun of them with other players. Seeing a review online, just isn’t the same.
Jeff, i think has a point, that niche hobbies are stronger then ever now. And although I think it’s easier for publishers to get to the market, i think at the same time, it’s hard for them to find customers, due to the decline of RPG’s as a main stream hobby, among those to like to be non-main stream.
Most importantly, the decline of the ‘game store’. Most stores I go into now, rarely have anyone playing anything other than MTG or PC rentals. There isn’t anyone just milling around, seeing what others are playing and getting to know other gamers anymore.
For me, there needs to be a balance of RPG’s distributed and played in game stores, to reach the masses, and to share the fun of them with other players. Seeing a review online, just isn’t the same.
I dunno. I do know that I have no real desire to “grow the hobby”. I’ve got no problem bringing new people into the hobby, such as I’ve done with my son, but other than that? I’ll let someone else do the work. 🙂
I dunno. I do know that I have no real desire to “grow the hobby”. I’ve got no problem bringing new people into the hobby, such as I’ve done with my son, but other than that? I’ll let someone else do the work. 🙂
Jeff Russell I largely agree with regard to people leaving tabletop RPGs for WoW. I think the reason that happened is WoW, while missing much of the spontaneity and storytelling potential of tabletop RPGs, made up for it in the fact that it didn’t require a lot of effort (or resources) to have fun with it.
I’m sure there are people who will boo and hiss at me for saying this (because it is still, in 2013, a controversial thing to say), but I think the Forge saved the hobby from itself. The Forge movement emphasized clean, simple mechanics that serve a purpose; expanded the range of settings and themes an RPG could deal with; and gave life to the on-demand publishing model. And the players and designers who inherited the spirit of the Forge continue to be some of the most passionate RPGers, and also very likely to invite their non-gamer friends over to the house to play an RPG.
And while the following example is anecdotal, I think it’s illustrative of my point: my sisters, who previously had no use for games, LOVE Fiasco and Monsterhearts, mostly because they’re easy to get into and they like the settings. They now have their boyfriends (and their friends) playing Fiasco pretty much every weekend. Several of them have purchased the Fiasco book, which is only $20, and they love that all the playsets are free. And just yesterday, one of their boyfriends (who is as ‘bro’ as one can be) asked me about Dungeon World. He heard it’s a lot like Monsterhearts, but with “wizards and stuff.”
That’s what I mean by “growing the hobby.” How do we create space for all types of gamers (and potential gamers)?
Jeff Russell I largely agree with regard to people leaving tabletop RPGs for WoW. I think the reason that happened is WoW, while missing much of the spontaneity and storytelling potential of tabletop RPGs, made up for it in the fact that it didn’t require a lot of effort (or resources) to have fun with it.
I’m sure there are people who will boo and hiss at me for saying this (because it is still, in 2013, a controversial thing to say), but I think the Forge saved the hobby from itself. The Forge movement emphasized clean, simple mechanics that serve a purpose; expanded the range of settings and themes an RPG could deal with; and gave life to the on-demand publishing model. And the players and designers who inherited the spirit of the Forge continue to be some of the most passionate RPGers, and also very likely to invite their non-gamer friends over to the house to play an RPG.
And while the following example is anecdotal, I think it’s illustrative of my point: my sisters, who previously had no use for games, LOVE Fiasco and Monsterhearts, mostly because they’re easy to get into and they like the settings. They now have their boyfriends (and their friends) playing Fiasco pretty much every weekend. Several of them have purchased the Fiasco book, which is only $20, and they love that all the playsets are free. And just yesterday, one of their boyfriends (who is as ‘bro’ as one can be) asked me about Dungeon World. He heard it’s a lot like Monsterhearts, but with “wizards and stuff.”
That’s what I mean by “growing the hobby.” How do we create space for all types of gamers (and potential gamers)?
Jason Cordova First off, that’s awesome about your sisters and their boyfriends. Secondly, I largely agree with what you’re saying. I think giving the Forge sole credit is overstating things a touch, as much as I enjoy and am inspired by “Forge Diaspora” games. Though there’s been a lot of cross pollination more recently, a lot of the early OSR stuff happened independently of the Forge or its influence. So, I think that RPGs were in a bad place and something was going to happen, and we’re lucky enough that the two biggest somethings have produced some great stuff.
To get back to the main point, though, I’m not sure how much Fiasco and Monsterhearts were designed for “people who don’t already role play” so much as designed to do a particular thing that other games didn’t already offer that happens to appeal to a lot of folks who haven’t gotten into RPGs.
So I wholly and unabashedly endorse creating as many games as possible for as many different tastes, so that the most people possible can have fun with them. But I think that is something of a separate issue from “growing the hobby” as a self-identifying group, but maybe that’s what you meant anyway.
Jason Cordova First off, that’s awesome about your sisters and their boyfriends. Secondly, I largely agree with what you’re saying. I think giving the Forge sole credit is overstating things a touch, as much as I enjoy and am inspired by “Forge Diaspora” games. Though there’s been a lot of cross pollination more recently, a lot of the early OSR stuff happened independently of the Forge or its influence. So, I think that RPGs were in a bad place and something was going to happen, and we’re lucky enough that the two biggest somethings have produced some great stuff.
To get back to the main point, though, I’m not sure how much Fiasco and Monsterhearts were designed for “people who don’t already role play” so much as designed to do a particular thing that other games didn’t already offer that happens to appeal to a lot of folks who haven’t gotten into RPGs.
So I wholly and unabashedly endorse creating as many games as possible for as many different tastes, so that the most people possible can have fun with them. But I think that is something of a separate issue from “growing the hobby” as a self-identifying group, but maybe that’s what you meant anyway.
Jeff Russell I take your point about the OSR, particularly as it relates to the DIY/self-publishing spirit that has been a boon to RPGs in the last 5-10 years (that’s kind of where I get off the train, though, when it comes to the OSR).
As for Fiasco…I think the practical effect, irrespective of what Jason Morningstar intended, is that it is an RPG that almost anyone can play and has a wide appeal. I have played it with my mother, my aunts and uncles, non-gamer friends, and, as mentioned, my siblings. It has always gone down well, and in a way I’m pretty sure many other games would not have.
As for Monsterhearts…Yes, it is good at what it sets out to do. While the theme is appealing to my sisters (high school monsters), a similarly-themed game, designed with traditional RPG principles, would probably not have gone down as well. The barriers to entry would be just too high and/or the rules would not work.
And that’s part of the reason why I give the Forge so much credit. I think there is a level of thoughtfulness with regard to game mechanics and outcomes that did not exist before the Forge. You can see a similar development in board games. German board games have spread beyond the enthusiast crowd because they are simple and well-executed.
As for “growing the hobby,” I make no distinction between “lots of people playing a wide variety of games” versus “a greater number of people self-identifying as gamers.” Perhaps “growing the industry” would have been a better choice of words.
Jeff Russell I take your point about the OSR, particularly as it relates to the DIY/self-publishing spirit that has been a boon to RPGs in the last 5-10 years (that’s kind of where I get off the train, though, when it comes to the OSR).
As for Fiasco…I think the practical effect, irrespective of what Jason Morningstar intended, is that it is an RPG that almost anyone can play and has a wide appeal. I have played it with my mother, my aunts and uncles, non-gamer friends, and, as mentioned, my siblings. It has always gone down well, and in a way I’m pretty sure many other games would not have.
As for Monsterhearts…Yes, it is good at what it sets out to do. While the theme is appealing to my sisters (high school monsters), a similarly-themed game, designed with traditional RPG principles, would probably not have gone down as well. The barriers to entry would be just too high and/or the rules would not work.
And that’s part of the reason why I give the Forge so much credit. I think there is a level of thoughtfulness with regard to game mechanics and outcomes that did not exist before the Forge. You can see a similar development in board games. German board games have spread beyond the enthusiast crowd because they are simple and well-executed.
As for “growing the hobby,” I make no distinction between “lots of people playing a wide variety of games” versus “a greater number of people self-identifying as gamers.” Perhaps “growing the industry” would have been a better choice of words.
I agree that the Forge did a lot to advance talking about mechanics and figuring out how to use them to get what you want out of a game, especially a tightly focused one. I would argue that D&D (at least some iterations of it) is quite good at doing what it is for, but the problem came from people using the convenient model of D&D and building ever less suitable things on top of it.
Uh, that’s super vague, so, more concretely: trying to use D&D or any other traditional game to get the sort of drama that Monsterhearts is made for would require so much additional stuff that you’re probably not much playing D&D anymore (see Forge discussions of drift and the like).
I think the problem RPGs in general had fallen into was not that D&D/other traditional games were/are bad or poorly designed, but that their designs were being used for ends to which they were not suited. At all 🙂
Sorry to get so long into that, but I got into OSR games after having my mind blown by forge diaspora games, and I’ve taken some of the design insights and thoughtfulness I learned and applied it there, and I’ve discovered that a lot of the seemingly arbitrary/annoying/bizarre rules are actually quite functional and well designed for their purpose.
So, that’s a really really long quibble, I just wanted to say that I think the OSR has a lot more to contribute than just DIY publishing. I agree that the forge and its descendants have helped create a lot of games that are more appealing to a wider audience, and that that’s a good thing. A great thing! But there are also people who would be hugely turned off by later D&D finding out that D&D without the cruft of decades is a fun game worth playing with your friends.
I agree that the Forge did a lot to advance talking about mechanics and figuring out how to use them to get what you want out of a game, especially a tightly focused one. I would argue that D&D (at least some iterations of it) is quite good at doing what it is for, but the problem came from people using the convenient model of D&D and building ever less suitable things on top of it.
Uh, that’s super vague, so, more concretely: trying to use D&D or any other traditional game to get the sort of drama that Monsterhearts is made for would require so much additional stuff that you’re probably not much playing D&D anymore (see Forge discussions of drift and the like).
I think the problem RPGs in general had fallen into was not that D&D/other traditional games were/are bad or poorly designed, but that their designs were being used for ends to which they were not suited. At all 🙂
Sorry to get so long into that, but I got into OSR games after having my mind blown by forge diaspora games, and I’ve taken some of the design insights and thoughtfulness I learned and applied it there, and I’ve discovered that a lot of the seemingly arbitrary/annoying/bizarre rules are actually quite functional and well designed for their purpose.
So, that’s a really really long quibble, I just wanted to say that I think the OSR has a lot more to contribute than just DIY publishing. I agree that the forge and its descendants have helped create a lot of games that are more appealing to a wider audience, and that that’s a good thing. A great thing! But there are also people who would be hugely turned off by later D&D finding out that D&D without the cruft of decades is a fun game worth playing with your friends.
Just to be extra super clear, because this is the Internet, I hope I’m not conveying any hostility or combativeness, because none is meant.
Just to be extra super clear, because this is the Internet, I hope I’m not conveying any hostility or combativeness, because none is meant.
Jeff Russell Oh, I don’t think you’re being combative at all. In fact, I agree with most of what you’ve said.
And I certainly don’t mean to convey I think the OSR has little value. Interestingly, because I game SO MUCH, I probably play more sessions of OSR games in a month than people who profess to be OSR adherents. I have a great time with it because I’m the kind of guy who loves maps and dice and beer. But I’m not convinced OSR games are bringing much to the table in terms of expanding the player base.
Jeff Russell Oh, I don’t think you’re being combative at all. In fact, I agree with most of what you’ve said.
And I certainly don’t mean to convey I think the OSR has little value. Interestingly, because I game SO MUCH, I probably play more sessions of OSR games in a month than people who profess to be OSR adherents. I have a great time with it because I’m the kind of guy who loves maps and dice and beer. But I’m not convinced OSR games are bringing much to the table in terms of expanding the player base.