I heard you needed more Canadians, so I’m listening to all your podcasts in chronological order. I just listened to Episode 11 about Secrets, and it reminded me of a story I was told.
This story was told to me by the GM as an earnest, cherished example of how awesome secrets between players can be in campaigns.
In a high-level AD&D campaign, there was a hapless ranger who was constantly getting killed and being resurrected at great expense. Mostly to himself, I believe–he was deeply in debt to an order of clerics, at a time when the other PCs were building strongholds.
For some reason, this irritated another PC, an assassin. I’m not sure if it irritated the PC, or the player.
At any rate, the assassin player approached the GM and declared he wanted to assassinate the ranger.. secretly. The ranger had no more money available, so this would be his final death.
The GM and assassin player had an impromptu, one-on-one session where the assassin described his plans for finding the ranger in town once the next adventure was over, and how he would go about trying to kill him when his guard was down. The ranger was a creature of habit, so the assassin had several ideas for how to track him down.
The GM dug up the ranger’s stats, and the two characters duelled it out in a hypothetical street ambush – the assassin PC played by his player, and the GM played the ranger, with the GM throwing a few curveballs to try to understand the assassin’s backup plans. The mock fight ends with the ranger dead. Satisfied with his plan, the assassin ends his private session.
Time passes. During the group’s next session they return to town, at which time the ranger heads off to his usual haunts, exactly as the assassin predicted.
The GM suddenly declares to the ranger that he’s under attack by a masked assailant. Using the strategies the assassin described during the rehearsal fight, the GM plays the assassin as an NPC.
The ranger is dumbfounded – who is this guy? Why is he attacking me? His questions are never answered: the fight goes as expected, and the ranger is dead. As far as the player can tell, a high-powered NPC came out of nowhere and killed his veteran PC, for no reason. With no more cash to his name and too indebted to them already for the church to take pity, it’s his final death.
—
There’s lots here to react to, but I wanted to add something that I didn’t hear touched on in the episode. Just like PbtA games remind us that the game is a conversation, the sessions themselves take place in a network of relationships.
This strikes me as the hallmark of messed-up table secrets: neglecting the impact it has on the relationships.
I think some of it stems from a lack of empathy. I have a secret, it’s fucking delicious, and I’m not imagining what it’s like not to know it. I’m confusing the suspense and tension I’m feeling at the impending big reveal with the idea that the reveal will be delightful all on its own (it won’t be). I’m assuming that nobody else can sense something weird is up with the vibe (they can).
Yeah, secrets only seem to be fun when all the players know them, but their characters may not. Then everyone is working to make a cool experience, rather than being an ass.
Yeah, secrets only seem to be fun when all the players know them, but their characters may not. Then everyone is working to make a cool experience, rather than being an ass.
Oh, and yes I think we could always use more Canadians. 😉
Oh, and yes I think we could always use more Canadians. 😉
I think it had to do with the social contract. If we all have secrets and the game is about finding them out then we can at least have a shared experience of conspiring against one another and wondering whose ploy will turn out to be successful. “You got me!”
But the ranger assassination was different. It’s like playing euchre with friends and finding out that your partner has a prior agreement to throw the game because they are rooting for the other team. They might ‘win’, but you’re not even playing the same game.
I think it had to do with the social contract. If we all have secrets and the game is about finding them out then we can at least have a shared experience of conspiring against one another and wondering whose ploy will turn out to be successful. “You got me!”
But the ranger assassination was different. It’s like playing euchre with friends and finding out that your partner has a prior agreement to throw the game because they are rooting for the other team. They might ‘win’, but you’re not even playing the same game.
I agree. I once stupidly proposed that a GM introduce a player that would play a traitor character in secret. The irony is the betrayal actually played into the story beautifully, except it led to more secrets and backstabbing between other players. It really brought out the worst in the group, and I regret giving the GM the idea.
I agree. I once stupidly proposed that a GM introduce a player that would play a traitor character in secret. The irony is the betrayal actually played into the story beautifully, except it led to more secrets and backstabbing between other players. It really brought out the worst in the group, and I regret giving the GM the idea.
whispers The invasion has begun
whispers The invasion has begun
There you go, letting the cat out of the bag. Now Certain people will start clamoring to build a wall on the northern USA border…
There you go, letting the cat out of the bag. Now Certain people will start clamoring to build a wall on the northern USA border…
We’ll get a wall built, AND we’ll make the Americans pay for it!
We’ll get a wall built, AND we’ll make the Americans pay for it!
I imagine Trump could be conned into doing that.
I imagine Trump could be conned into doing that.
That story is legit heartbreaking.
That story is legit heartbreaking.
Michael Prescott​ happy to ear youre grinding the podcasts. I did that a few months back. Its very interesting to see the evolution and improvements as time goes by. Happy listening from a fellow Canadian.
Michael Prescott​ happy to ear youre grinding the podcasts. I did that a few months back. Its very interesting to see the evolution and improvements as time goes by. Happy listening from a fellow Canadian.
If we build a Canadian wall, it will be made with all the snow we currently have overhere. 😉
If we build a Canadian wall, it will be made with all the snow we currently have overhere. 😉
Michael Prescott Now more on topic. this is an interesting exercise IN THEORY. It completely goes against my GM principles. I’m curious to know what happened at the table afterward. Did the secret eventually come out? How did the players react?
My main gratification as a GM is to make a GROUP happy and have a good time. I try to provide some joy, fun, and comfort for people in this hard/difficult thing that is our daily lives.
If a player is irritated at my table my job as a GM is
1st) to detect this
2nd) bring it forth and ask the group to have a adult conversation about it so we can resolve the problem quickly while making sure all are good with the result.
Michael Prescott Now more on topic. this is an interesting exercise IN THEORY. It completely goes against my GM principles. I’m curious to know what happened at the table afterward. Did the secret eventually come out? How did the players react?
My main gratification as a GM is to make a GROUP happy and have a good time. I try to provide some joy, fun, and comfort for people in this hard/difficult thing that is our daily lives.
If a player is irritated at my table my job as a GM is
1st) to detect this
2nd) bring it forth and ask the group to have a adult conversation about it so we can resolve the problem quickly while making sure all are good with the result.
Maxime Lacoste As it was told to me by the GM, the ranger player never found out, no.
Maxime Lacoste As it was told to me by the GM, the ranger player never found out, no.
like… wow
like… wow
Yeah, that’s straight-up lack of empathy. GM and pal pulled one over on a fellow player; at face value, the GM and assassin player are unrepentant selfish dicks. Because clearly for them, the most savory part was that it was all (and continues to be) a secret. They’re power-tripping on the fact that they put one over on the ranger’s player.
I think it would all be fine if the GM and players all understood from the get-go that stuff like that could happen in the game. But the fact that the ranger player still doesn’t know seems to indicate that that’s not the case.
Yeah, that’s straight-up lack of empathy. GM and pal pulled one over on a fellow player; at face value, the GM and assassin player are unrepentant selfish dicks. Because clearly for them, the most savory part was that it was all (and continues to be) a secret. They’re power-tripping on the fact that they put one over on the ranger’s player.
I think it would all be fine if the GM and players all understood from the get-go that stuff like that could happen in the game. But the fact that the ranger player still doesn’t know seems to indicate that that’s not the case.
Jason Lutes Right? There are so many less egregious examples that still sound fishy. Would it be weird if Wendy and I mat for 1 on 1 sessions between regular sessions of the party and never told any other players? Why do I get to know this secret but the ranger’s player never does? How long must the secret be maintained? If that is part of the game, when does that end?
Jason Lutes Right? There are so many less egregious examples that still sound fishy. Would it be weird if Wendy and I mat for 1 on 1 sessions between regular sessions of the party and never told any other players? Why do I get to know this secret but the ranger’s player never does? How long must the secret be maintained? If that is part of the game, when does that end?
Jason Lutes Here’s a question: what if it was understood that stuff like that could happen in the game, but it hadn’t for the years the ranger’s player was in the game (and it would take years to get a character to high levels in AD&D as written)? Would the GM and the assassin player still be in the wrong?
I’d say yes, because I find that what actually happens at the table sets expectations as much as the rules laid out beforehand. The social contract evolves in play, and it’s shitty to pretend otherwise. If I found out that the character I’d been playing for four years died because the GM and another player had met in secret to discuss how to kill my PC, the argument “This is what you signed up for four years ago!” would just piss me off more, I think. If we’d all been trying to kill each other all along, it might be different, but…
Jason Lutes Here’s a question: what if it was understood that stuff like that could happen in the game, but it hadn’t for the years the ranger’s player was in the game (and it would take years to get a character to high levels in AD&D as written)? Would the GM and the assassin player still be in the wrong?
I’d say yes, because I find that what actually happens at the table sets expectations as much as the rules laid out beforehand. The social contract evolves in play, and it’s shitty to pretend otherwise. If I found out that the character I’d been playing for four years died because the GM and another player had met in secret to discuss how to kill my PC, the argument “This is what you signed up for four years ago!” would just piss me off more, I think. If we’d all been trying to kill each other all along, it might be different, but…
So much wrong with this story. In a D&D 5e game I am in, one of the players hasn’t actually told the other players his class; nor his real name. Seems dumb and infantile to me.
So much wrong with this story. In a D&D 5e game I am in, one of the players hasn’t actually told the other players his class; nor his real name. Seems dumb and infantile to me.
Wow, that story is gross as fuck. It’s definitely on the more extreme end of “secrets are bad” stories I’ve heard. It feels like ages since we recorded this episode, so I’m fuzzy on the specific details of what we talked about, but as a general matter, in addition to secrets at the table being incredibly selfish and alienating, they also make it challenging to simply tell your story. GMs can and should have secrets at the table; they’re in a position to reveal them in a way that feels coherent and won’t dash anyone’s expectations. But out-of-character secrets between players, or players and GM, are just hard to work with.
Wow, that story is gross as fuck. It’s definitely on the more extreme end of “secrets are bad” stories I’ve heard. It feels like ages since we recorded this episode, so I’m fuzzy on the specific details of what we talked about, but as a general matter, in addition to secrets at the table being incredibly selfish and alienating, they also make it challenging to simply tell your story. GMs can and should have secrets at the table; they’re in a position to reveal them in a way that feels coherent and won’t dash anyone’s expectations. But out-of-character secrets between players, or players and GM, are just hard to work with.