Dungeon World (and PBTA games in general) are confusing for people who are used to other systems. I see a lot of reviews for Dungeon World products that complain about “missing” elements like maps. For people who have only played traditional games, the light touch presented (with perfection) in products like Plundergrounds or Codex can be seen as a failure to fill in the details.
In Dungeon World the details are the domain of the players (including the GM).
Some PbtA games do explain how theatre of the mind works. In addition, it is possible to use visual aids, like maps, if you want. Maps aren’t NECESSARY, but that doesn’t mean your group can’t use them.
Some PbtA games do explain how theatre of the mind works. In addition, it is possible to use visual aids, like maps, if you want. Maps aren’t NECESSARY, but that doesn’t mean your group can’t use them.
It just takes some getting used to- a lot of us come from trad backgrounds. I personally found the approach liberating, and I started playing with ADnD1e. Simulationists may struggle at first, and inveterate hex mappers and trad adversarial dms may never find what they’re looking for, but man this engine is solid gold. When I was a kid and finally collapsed after a marathon of Shadowrun or Rifts I would dream about math rather than the epic adventure and it would piss me off. DW and AW etc clear away the dross and let you get straight to the meat of the story. Haters gonna hate.
It just takes some getting used to- a lot of us come from trad backgrounds. I personally found the approach liberating, and I started playing with ADnD1e. Simulationists may struggle at first, and inveterate hex mappers and trad adversarial dms may never find what they’re looking for, but man this engine is solid gold. When I was a kid and finally collapsed after a marathon of Shadowrun or Rifts I would dream about math rather than the epic adventure and it would piss me off. DW and AW etc clear away the dross and let you get straight to the meat of the story. Haters gonna hate.
Rory MacLeod I agree. I don’t mind when people use maps. I just wanted to point out that they aren’t “missing” from DW related works.
Rory MacLeod I agree. I don’t mind when people use maps. I just wanted to point out that they aren’t “missing” from DW related works.
Joshua Faller I agree with everything you said Joshua, even up to the AD&D start timeframe and the dreaming of numbers (only thing different, for me it was GURPS instead of Rifts…).
Logan Howard About reviews, in particular negative. Let’s see if I can say this concisely. I see that there are 2 types.
1) Reviewers that dont’ actually play. That’s not necessarily a fair review; and the revieweres previous experience and bias will definitely color their understanding of DW. You really have to play it to get it.
2) Reviewers that played it; but didn’t “get” it. There’s a cycle here – you have to fully invest in the DW/AW play style to “get” the game; and if you do, you will probably love it. If you don’t fully invest in the play style; you probably won’t get it; and you probably won’t like it. Especially if you try to use it like a more classic game of GM makes all narrative decisions; and players passively accept those decisions; except in combat/conflict.
My 2cents.
Joshua Faller I agree with everything you said Joshua, even up to the AD&D start timeframe and the dreaming of numbers (only thing different, for me it was GURPS instead of Rifts…).
Logan Howard About reviews, in particular negative. Let’s see if I can say this concisely. I see that there are 2 types.
1) Reviewers that dont’ actually play. That’s not necessarily a fair review; and the revieweres previous experience and bias will definitely color their understanding of DW. You really have to play it to get it.
2) Reviewers that played it; but didn’t “get” it. There’s a cycle here – you have to fully invest in the DW/AW play style to “get” the game; and if you do, you will probably love it. If you don’t fully invest in the play style; you probably won’t get it; and you probably won’t like it. Especially if you try to use it like a more classic game of GM makes all narrative decisions; and players passively accept those decisions; except in combat/conflict.
My 2cents.
Joshua Faller I have been fortunate. None of my reviewers have criticized my stuff for this yet but I have seen some pretty harsh reviews out there. I find the PBTA approach liberating too.
Joshua Faller I have been fortunate. None of my reviewers have criticized my stuff for this yet but I have seen some pretty harsh reviews out there. I find the PBTA approach liberating too.
I find comments about wanting a map a little funny too. On the other hand, I’ve been thinking about what kind of maps would be good for a DW game. Karl Stjernberg recently posted one that seemed VERY DW friendly to me: plus.google.com – Here’s the “map” for the radio adventure. The PCs started in the hold with th…
I find comments about wanting a map a little funny too. On the other hand, I’ve been thinking about what kind of maps would be good for a DW game. Karl Stjernberg recently posted one that seemed VERY DW friendly to me: plus.google.com – Here’s the “map” for the radio adventure. The PCs started in the hold with th…
Chris Shorb Exactly! I’m not trying to insult the reviewers at all. I just think they don’t understand what they are reviewing.
Chris Shorb Exactly! I’m not trying to insult the reviewers at all. I just think they don’t understand what they are reviewing.
Ray Otus Wow! I love that. Perhaps we should look at DW maps the same way Jason Cordova and David LaFreniere talked about using dangers in the last Discern Realities. Offer little pieces that can be plugged into some of those blanks we’re leaving.
Ray Otus Wow! I love that. Perhaps we should look at DW maps the same way Jason Cordova and David LaFreniere talked about using dangers in the last Discern Realities. Offer little pieces that can be plugged into some of those blanks we’re leaving.
Here’s a map from Jason Lutes that I really like.
plus.google.com – This week in the lab, our crew of 1st and 2nd level freebooters will be plumb…
Here’s a map from Jason Lutes that I really like.
plus.google.com – This week in the lab, our crew of 1st and 2nd level freebooters will be plumb…
Exactly Logan Howard. Even if reviewers are coming at something from a wrong angle, I still like to think about their words (as I’m sure you do). It makes me wonder whether I can somehow do something in the presentation to help them grok the thing better up front or whether some form of what they are saying might be true, even if it comes from a place of misperception. In regard to maps, I think. Well, of course “traditional” dungeon maps don’t make sense for DW. On the other hand, that doesn’t mean “no map” is necessarily right. So what kind of map would make sense?
Exactly Logan Howard. Even if reviewers are coming at something from a wrong angle, I still like to think about their words (as I’m sure you do). It makes me wonder whether I can somehow do something in the presentation to help them grok the thing better up front or whether some form of what they are saying might be true, even if it comes from a place of misperception. In regard to maps, I think. Well, of course “traditional” dungeon maps don’t make sense for DW. On the other hand, that doesn’t mean “no map” is necessarily right. So what kind of map would make sense?
Ray Otus I think the one you linked to is just about right. It offers some interesting details but can be abandoned easily if the players have something else they want from their game.
Ray Otus I think the one you linked to is just about right. It offers some interesting details but can be abandoned easily if the players have something else they want from their game.
Also, it’s more of an ‘encounter map.’ I have a blank I use that looks a bit like the one Chris Shorb posted. It’s octagons with connectors. When the group invents a place or terrain, I fill in one of the spots on the grid. Sometimes I put one in myself, usually with blanks in between it and where they are, and then ask them what terrible terrain lies between! (You know what. This advice should go in Plundergrounds. Maybe for issue 5.)
Also, it’s more of an ‘encounter map.’ I have a blank I use that looks a bit like the one Chris Shorb posted. It’s octagons with connectors. When the group invents a place or terrain, I fill in one of the spots on the grid. Sometimes I put one in myself, usually with blanks in between it and where they are, and then ask them what terrible terrain lies between! (You know what. This advice should go in Plundergrounds. Maybe for issue 5.)
That (awesome) map Ray Otus posted from Karl Stjernberg is exactly the kind of map I think works for DW. On the kickstarter page there is one in a similar vein. I don’t believe it was shown in the final book. Wish it had been, I think showing maps like that would have helped explain how maps could work in DW.
That (awesome) map Ray Otus posted from Karl Stjernberg is exactly the kind of map I think works for DW. On the kickstarter page there is one in a similar vein. I don’t believe it was shown in the final book. Wish it had been, I think showing maps like that would have helped explain how maps could work in DW.
I’ve seen similar criticism of DW from people that seemed to “not get it”: “Why can only Elves and Halflings be Bards? That’s so limiting!” To me, when I read through the book, the idea I got was totally different. There are empty spaces on the character sheets for a reason. You should feel entitled to “color outside of the lines”, so to speak. If you want to be a squid-person Bard, you should do that! Tell us how that affects your role and we can write a racial move for it. We can look to the other racial moves for inspiration. We can cross out “halfling” and write “gnome”. We can cross out “dwarf” and write “gorilla”. Looking back I’m not sure how explicit that is in the text, but the feeling I held very strongly throughout my initial read was, “Hey these are just suggestions and we can hack this book however we want!” Did anyone else feel the same way?
I’ve seen similar criticism of DW from people that seemed to “not get it”: “Why can only Elves and Halflings be Bards? That’s so limiting!” To me, when I read through the book, the idea I got was totally different. There are empty spaces on the character sheets for a reason. You should feel entitled to “color outside of the lines”, so to speak. If you want to be a squid-person Bard, you should do that! Tell us how that affects your role and we can write a racial move for it. We can look to the other racial moves for inspiration. We can cross out “halfling” and write “gnome”. We can cross out “dwarf” and write “gorilla”. Looking back I’m not sure how explicit that is in the text, but the feeling I held very strongly throughout my initial read was, “Hey these are just suggestions and we can hack this book however we want!” Did anyone else feel the same way?
Michael G. Barford If I could quadruple “+” that I would! It’s exactly the kind of adaptable spirit i read into it too. I wonder what Sage LaTorra and Adam Koebel would say…
Michael G. Barford If I could quadruple “+” that I would! It’s exactly the kind of adaptable spirit i read into it too. I wonder what Sage LaTorra and Adam Koebel would say…
Surprised to hear that some feel that way about maps. When we played D&D as kids we never used minis or maps.
Surprised to hear that some feel that way about maps. When we played D&D as kids we never used minis or maps.