A question for the brains trust.

A question for the brains trust.

A question for the brains trust.

Background: My day job is teaching game design and screenwriting to undergraduates at a private college. I’ve used a little bit of D&D in the game design class before (and Lasers and Feelings, on one memorable occasion when Grant Howitt guest-lectured), but I’ve decided I want to try incorporating more RPGs into both classes. (I’m hoping this will be both a motivating factor for my students, as well as a fun way to reinforce a wide variety of ideas about game mechanics, player experience, creativity, storytelling and so on.)

The question: What game or games would you use to teach either screenwriting or game design (or both) if you were in my position?

40 thoughts on “A question for the brains trust.”

  5. Primetime Adventures. It was designed from the ground up to simulate a season of television.

    Dogs in the Vineyard. The mechanics just BEG your characters to take the easy way out of solving problems (knives, guns, etc.), which makes for agonizing decisions.

  6. Primetime Adventures. It was designed from the ground up to simulate a season of television.

    Dogs in the Vineyard. The mechanics just BEG your characters to take the easy way out of solving problems (knives, guns, etc.), which makes for agonizing decisions.

  13. Since I’ve been invoked, here are my thoughts on the screenwriting part of the question:

    My first, go-to game would be (as already mentioned) Primetime Adventures. I don’t think one can go wrong on this.

    Primary tools taught: Thinking as the Protagonist in terms of “What do I want?” in each scene, and thinking like a writer (AKA “The Producer” role in the game) how do I provide obstacles and conflicts to give the protagonists things to do in a scene. Two big lessons, taught clearly.

    Outside of that, the list grows fast, but all with more “game-stuff” in varying degrees: Burning Wheel, almost anything by Baker, Sorcerer all leap to mind. (Fiasco is good, but builds a very specific kind of story, and might not be as useful for teaching basics.)

    The key is stepping back and reviewing how things went after play.

    Note that I’m running a Lamentations of the Flame Princess game. It’s a reworking of B/X D&D, full of pulp-fiction weird-fantasy shenanigans.

    It isn’t character driven at all, but fits rather in to the episodic tales of 20th century short story adventure fiction (REH, Burroughs, Vance, Leiber, and so on). But, still, I’ll finish a session thinking, “Ah, I shouldn’t have dumped that exposition there… I robbed the players of the tension of wondering about that and having to solve it on their own. The narrative payoff would have been better if I didn’t do that. Learn to slow down the need to explain things. Let mysteries linger.”

    So, there are two parts, I think, in this exercise:

    The act of making stuff up on the fly, and socially.

    And then stepping back and saying, “Okay, we made this first draft. What we keeping? What are we losing? What can we learn for next time? If we were to take this ‘rough draft’ and turn int into a TV script or a feature, what would we keep? What would we have to add? What would we have to change to make it valuable as a screenplay?”

  14. Since I’ve been invoked, here are my thoughts on the screenwriting part of the question:

    My first, go-to game would be (as already mentioned) Primetime Adventures. I don’t think one can go wrong on this.

    Primary tools taught: Thinking as the Protagonist in terms of “What do I want?” in each scene, and thinking like a writer (AKA “The Producer” role in the game) how do I provide obstacles and conflicts to give the protagonists things to do in a scene. Two big lessons, taught clearly.

    Outside of that, the list grows fast, but all with more “game-stuff” in varying degrees: Burning Wheel, almost anything by Baker, Sorcerer all leap to mind. (Fiasco is good, but builds a very specific kind of story, and might not be as useful for teaching basics.)

    The key is stepping back and reviewing how things went after play.

    Note that I’m running a Lamentations of the Flame Princess game. It’s a reworking of B/X D&D, full of pulp-fiction weird-fantasy shenanigans.

    It isn’t character driven at all, but fits rather in to the episodic tales of 20th century short story adventure fiction (REH, Burroughs, Vance, Leiber, and so on). But, still, I’ll finish a session thinking, “Ah, I shouldn’t have dumped that exposition there… I robbed the players of the tension of wondering about that and having to solve it on their own. The narrative payoff would have been better if I didn’t do that. Learn to slow down the need to explain things. Let mysteries linger.”

    So, there are two parts, I think, in this exercise:

    The act of making stuff up on the fly, and socially.

    And then stepping back and saying, “Okay, we made this first draft. What we keeping? What are we losing? What can we learn for next time? If we were to take this ‘rough draft’ and turn int into a TV script or a feature, what would we keep? What would we have to add? What would we have to change to make it valuable as a screenplay?”

  15. Hey! More thoughts!

    I think Apocalypse World and Sorcerer are awesome for teaching a really important lesson:

    “What Is The Camera Pointed At?”

    This is an important lesson that lots of people raised on reading prose often need to learn — often the hard way.

    Narration allows the writer to express all sorts of ideas and information in the most casual of ways.

    Dramatic Narrative (TV, Film, Theater), instead limits the telling of the tale through the words and deeds of the characters. That is, what the audience sees and hears from the characters is the story.

    Both Apocalypse World and Sorcerer are driven by having specific fictional details for the conflict mechanics to work. If you don’t know what each character is doing, if you don’t know what weapons/tools/items are in play, if you don’t know the geography, if you know what specific actions the characters are taking, the systems simply break down.

    In other words, these two systems DEMAND that the players and referee are always tracking, detailing, and adding specific, concrete imagery in order to push events forward. By definition, focusing on these things is focusing one What the Camera Sees.

    And that’s one of the best ways to write scripts: As if you are inside the camera, recording what the camera is seeing.

    This is a different lesson than what Primetime Adventures focuses on, as an example. PTA will teach you a lot about story structure, conflict, and scene structure. AW is lighter on that, but be rock solid this idea of specific, cinematic ready details. Sorcerer is a fine mix of both these things. (At least as I read them all.)

    *

    Which brings us to a final point:

    The discipline of screenwriting is LOTS OF STUFF. Different games will teach different lessons about different stuff. And, importantly, each person will have a knack for some things, and need to work the muscles of other things. (I read Hamlet’s Hit Points and think, “Yeah, the fortunes of characters should rise and fall.” It’s so obvious to me I get nothing from it, and it almost strikes me as a trap. But for someone else it might be the epiphany they need.)

  16. Hey! More thoughts!

    I think Apocalypse World and Sorcerer are awesome for teaching a really important lesson:

    “What Is The Camera Pointed At?”

    This is an important lesson that lots of people raised on reading prose often need to learn — often the hard way.

    Narration allows the writer to express all sorts of ideas and information in the most casual of ways.

    Dramatic Narrative (TV, Film, Theater), instead limits the telling of the tale through the words and deeds of the characters. That is, what the audience sees and hears from the characters is the story.

    Both Apocalypse World and Sorcerer are driven by having specific fictional details for the conflict mechanics to work. If you don’t know what each character is doing, if you don’t know what weapons/tools/items are in play, if you don’t know the geography, if you know what specific actions the characters are taking, the systems simply break down.

    In other words, these two systems DEMAND that the players and referee are always tracking, detailing, and adding specific, concrete imagery in order to push events forward. By definition, focusing on these things is focusing one What the Camera Sees.

    And that’s one of the best ways to write scripts: As if you are inside the camera, recording what the camera is seeing.

    This is a different lesson than what Primetime Adventures focuses on, as an example. PTA will teach you a lot about story structure, conflict, and scene structure. AW is lighter on that, but be rock solid this idea of specific, cinematic ready details. Sorcerer is a fine mix of both these things. (At least as I read them all.)

    *

    Which brings us to a final point:

    The discipline of screenwriting is LOTS OF STUFF. Different games will teach different lessons about different stuff. And, importantly, each person will have a knack for some things, and need to work the muscles of other things. (I read Hamlet’s Hit Points and think, “Yeah, the fortunes of characters should rise and fall.” It’s so obvious to me I get nothing from it, and it almost strikes me as a trap. But for someone else it might be the epiphany they need.)

  17. I feel like PSI*Run and Dread have lessons to teach about pacing and tension.

    Having everyone pick a different system and do a 5-minute “tell me about your character” and how you made them presentation might also have lessons about character creation.

    The Quiet Year has lessons about setting creation, adversity, and collaboration.

  18. I feel like PSI*Run and Dread have lessons to teach about pacing and tension.

    Having everyone pick a different system and do a 5-minute “tell me about your character” and how you made them presentation might also have lessons about character creation.

    The Quiet Year has lessons about setting creation, adversity, and collaboration.

  21. Thank you everyone for the very thoughtful suggestions! (And particularly Christopher Kubasik for your very detailed thoughts.) Some of your suggestions confirm ideas I’d already struck across, but there are also some new things that hadn’t occurred to me.

    I guess one caveat I should add is that I’ll be unlikely to be able to run full sessions of a game in class, so any value the game game has will need to come across even when played (or discussed) in short bursts. Also: games that aren’t too focused on the “acting” element of the hobby are likely to go down better – I do get quite a lot of students who are a bit shy or self-conscious (but they generally love stories and games, particularly genre stuff).

    I’m thinking of using little chunks of Dungeon World in the game design class, changing the setting and modding the rules week-to-week to demonstrate various topics and show how rules design informs player experience (PbtA games’ famous modibility is a real strength here).

    For screenwriting, I definitely need to look at Primetime Adventures (which I own, but have never read or played). I”ll probably use DW again (it’s my PbtA game of choice) for the reasons Christopher highlights (focusing on what is happening “on screen”), but also just for that basic loop of “character meets obstacle > overcomes it or fails to > story moves in a new direction”. I could probably plug Burning Wheel-style beliefs or goals into it to highlight the importance of character motivation.

    I’ll also definitely have a close look at Sorcerer, Microsope, Psi*Run, Dread, Fiasco, The Quiet Year and finish reading Hamlet’s Hit Points. Daughters of Verona is the only game mentioned so far that I didn’t really know anything about, but it sounds really interesting.

    Another game that just occurred to me might be good is Archipelago. Again, I haven’t read or played it, but what I’ve heard about it sounds promising in a variety of respects.

    Lastly: thanks for pointing me to that community, Chris Shorb! It looks like just the place to have further in-depth discussions on the subject.

    If anyone has further suggestions, keep them coming!

  22. Thank you everyone for the very thoughtful suggestions! (And particularly Christopher Kubasik for your very detailed thoughts.) Some of your suggestions confirm ideas I’d already struck across, but there are also some new things that hadn’t occurred to me.

    I guess one caveat I should add is that I’ll be unlikely to be able to run full sessions of a game in class, so any value the game game has will need to come across even when played (or discussed) in short bursts. Also: games that aren’t too focused on the “acting” element of the hobby are likely to go down better – I do get quite a lot of students who are a bit shy or self-conscious (but they generally love stories and games, particularly genre stuff).

    I’m thinking of using little chunks of Dungeon World in the game design class, changing the setting and modding the rules week-to-week to demonstrate various topics and show how rules design informs player experience (PbtA games’ famous modibility is a real strength here).

    For screenwriting, I definitely need to look at Primetime Adventures (which I own, but have never read or played). I”ll probably use DW again (it’s my PbtA game of choice) for the reasons Christopher highlights (focusing on what is happening “on screen”), but also just for that basic loop of “character meets obstacle > overcomes it or fails to > story moves in a new direction”. I could probably plug Burning Wheel-style beliefs or goals into it to highlight the importance of character motivation.

    I’ll also definitely have a close look at Sorcerer, Microsope, Psi*Run, Dread, Fiasco, The Quiet Year and finish reading Hamlet’s Hit Points. Daughters of Verona is the only game mentioned so far that I didn’t really know anything about, but it sounds really interesting.

    Another game that just occurred to me might be good is Archipelago. Again, I haven’t read or played it, but what I’ve heard about it sounds promising in a variety of respects.

    Lastly: thanks for pointing me to that community, Chris Shorb! It looks like just the place to have further in-depth discussions on the subject.

    If anyone has further suggestions, keep them coming!

  23. FATE could be a good example for game design, since it already has a toolkit book that shows ways to alter the basic framework as well as FATE Accelerated, which is the exact same system but doesn’t at all look it.

  24. FATE could be a good example for game design, since it already has a toolkit book that shows ways to alter the basic framework as well as FATE Accelerated, which is the exact same system but doesn’t at all look it.

  25. Saul Alexander I’m late to the party, and since Aaron Jones has mentioned Fate, all my surefire recommendations are there. If you teach both screenwriting and game design, I think you’re great and we should talk.

    I dabble in both, and I think both disciplines can hugely benefit from each other’s techniques, mainly in collaboration, but also in the departments of world building, character design, story structure, improvisation, experience design and empathy building.

    For this thread, are you interested purely in examples of games that you could use to teach, or are you interested in game design toolboxes, too (like workshops etc)? There are a few I have in mind and I’ve just recently tried to collect more.

  26. Saul Alexander I’m late to the party, and since Aaron Jones has mentioned Fate, all my surefire recommendations are there. If you teach both screenwriting and game design, I think you’re great and we should talk.

    I dabble in both, and I think both disciplines can hugely benefit from each other’s techniques, mainly in collaboration, but also in the departments of world building, character design, story structure, improvisation, experience design and empathy building.

    For this thread, are you interested purely in examples of games that you could use to teach, or are you interested in game design toolboxes, too (like workshops etc)? There are a few I have in mind and I’ve just recently tried to collect more.

  27. Johannes Oppermann Haha, thanks. I started out teaching game design, but then got recruited into teaching screenwriting too. (I’m a writer, but had never really done any Film/TV screenwriting – just some stuff for games.) Next year it looks like I’ll be doing some cultural studies teaching as well.

    And absolutely we should chat – I’d definitely be interested to hear your thoughts.

    I’d also be interested in hearing about ‘toolboxes’ (assuming I correctly understand what you mean).

  28. Johannes Oppermann Haha, thanks. I started out teaching game design, but then got recruited into teaching screenwriting too. (I’m a writer, but had never really done any Film/TV screenwriting – just some stuff for games.) Next year it looks like I’ll be doing some cultural studies teaching as well.

    And absolutely we should chat – I’d definitely be interested to hear your thoughts.

    I’d also be interested in hearing about ‘toolboxes’ (assuming I correctly understand what you mean).

  29. By toolboxes I mean documents that are not ready-to-use games as such but tools to make games. Of course, making a game can be a game that is fun to play, too. I’ll link to a few I know of here so you can see what I mean:

    LarpJam – http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/181357/LarpJam

    Play with Intent – https://playwithintent.wordpress.com/

    A Pattern Language for LARP design – http://www.larppatterns.org/

    When our destinies meet – https://whenourdestiniesmeet.wordpress.com/

    And let’s chat soon!

  30. By toolboxes I mean documents that are not ready-to-use games as such but tools to make games. Of course, making a game can be a game that is fun to play, too. I’ll link to a few I know of here so you can see what I mean:

    LarpJam – http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/181357/LarpJam

    Play with Intent – https://playwithintent.wordpress.com/

    A Pattern Language for LARP design – http://www.larppatterns.org/

    When our destinies meet – https://whenourdestiniesmeet.wordpress.com/

    And let’s chat soon!

  31. Totally as an aside – I’ve been reading the screenplay to Fantastic Beasts and where to find them. As a prose reader, I had never sat and read a screenplay before. Wow – what a totally different way of writing; with completely different formal rules and conventions. I’m really enjoying it; and what Christopher Kubasik  says about putting oneself in the position of the viewer really struck home reading that.

    Suffice it to say my brain shifted in reading the screenplay.

    I look forward to then watching the movie and having the screenplay come alive in my mind – and also note where things differed from the screenplay.

  32. Totally as an aside – I’ve been reading the screenplay to Fantastic Beasts and where to find them. As a prose reader, I had never sat and read a screenplay before. Wow – what a totally different way of writing; with completely different formal rules and conventions. I’m really enjoying it; and what Christopher Kubasik  says about putting oneself in the position of the viewer really struck home reading that.

    Suffice it to say my brain shifted in reading the screenplay.

    I look forward to then watching the movie and having the screenplay come alive in my mind – and also note where things differed from the screenplay.

  35. Christopher Kubasik So good. I do a comparison between that draft and an earlier one in my class. The early one is hilariously bad – it’s such a fantastic contrast. A standout line from the earlier version: “Six nude men sit up.” Comedy gold.

  36. Christopher Kubasik So good. I do a comparison between that draft and an earlier one in my class. The early one is hilariously bad – it’s such a fantastic contrast. A standout line from the earlier version: “Six nude men sit up.” Comedy gold.

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