40 thoughts on “So this is a cool announcement that I think y’all will enjoy…”

  5. I am ignorant of this stuff. I know the names of like three people who are regarded as controversial in the OSR. Zak and two others (whose names escape me but those two seem like the real troublemakers).

    Is it bigger than that? I’m on twitter, discord etc but i just don’t see this stuff. I think I’m following the wrong people! Or the right people depending on your point of view!

  6. I am ignorant of this stuff. I know the names of like three people who are regarded as controversial in the OSR. Zak and two others (whose names escape me but those two seem like the real troublemakers).

    Is it bigger than that? I’m on twitter, discord etc but i just don’t see this stuff. I think I’m following the wrong people! Or the right people depending on your point of view!

  7. Richard Smithson This is about Venger being dumb. If you don’t know who he is than more power to you.

    Jason Cordova How do you police a scene as big as the OSR, with no central hub of activity. Some people have called Venger out, some people not, some people probably don’t make anything is even happening. Michael Prescott has called the OSR a fandom and that seems on the nose. Any idiot can show up and claim to be King of the OSR—people do that all the time in fact—and most fans don’t have much control over that. There is no shared space you are either a part of or not. (This is in sharp contrast to the Gauntlet.)

  8. Richard Smithson This is about Venger being dumb. If you don’t know who he is than more power to you.

    Jason Cordova How do you police a scene as big as the OSR, with no central hub of activity. Some people have called Venger out, some people not, some people probably don’t make anything is even happening. Michael Prescott has called the OSR a fandom and that seems on the nose. Any idiot can show up and claim to be King of the OSR—people do that all the time in fact—and most fans don’t have much control over that. There is no shared space you are either a part of or not. (This is in sharp contrast to the Gauntlet.)

  11. Ramanan S You police it like this. You have people stand up and loudly declare their values, and then use whatever levers you have to enforce those values. I don’t think that has typically happened in the OSR, for reasons I am certain are cultural or not wanting to seem like a shrill SJW. Indie/story games is an even more diffuse fandom than the OSR, but people with a platform (like me) talk about their values all the time and actively hound out bad actors (instead of just ignoring them or shrugging their shoulders).

  12. Ramanan S You police it like this. You have people stand up and loudly declare their values, and then use whatever levers you have to enforce those values. I don’t think that has typically happened in the OSR, for reasons I am certain are cultural or not wanting to seem like a shrill SJW. Indie/story games is an even more diffuse fandom than the OSR, but people with a platform (like me) talk about their values all the time and actively hound out bad actors (instead of just ignoring them or shrugging their shoulders).

  13. What OSR? I haven’t seen a post from Venger in a million years because he exists outside of the space I am a part of. He’s being dunked in his public post. He has a couple hundred followers on Twitter and almost no traction here. He has been shunted to the side lines—in the OSR I care about. But theRPGSite is probably full of people happy to have him. And that’s a space I have no power over and, and a space full of “OSR” fans. Saying that the OSR doesn’t police itself feels like you aren’t paying attention.

  14. What OSR? I haven’t seen a post from Venger in a million years because he exists outside of the space I am a part of. He’s being dunked in his public post. He has a couple hundred followers on Twitter and almost no traction here. He has been shunted to the side lines—in the OSR I care about. But theRPGSite is probably full of people happy to have him. And that’s a space I have no power over and, and a space full of “OSR” fans. Saying that the OSR doesn’t police itself feels like you aren’t paying attention.

  17. Jason Cordova This has been the topic of conversation for some time too. A lot of people I met here no longer use the term OSR because its negative baggage. (Zak has always called his space DIYD&D for similar reason I suspect.)

    But I’ve met so many amazing people here, in the OSR. Why cede anything to anyone else? The label describes a thing I like and a movement I am/was a part of.

  18. Jason Cordova This has been the topic of conversation for some time too. A lot of people I met here no longer use the term OSR because its negative baggage. (Zak has always called his space DIYD&D for similar reason I suspect.)

    But I’ve met so many amazing people here, in the OSR. Why cede anything to anyone else? The label describes a thing I like and a movement I am/was a part of.

  19. Posted this elsewhere, “My personal take is it’s better for people to understand the OSR is a disparate space than try and make it a monolith. I think what’s makes this scene good is that there is space for Tenkar and Pundit and Zak and whomever else. I think what makes the indie scene stupid is that they feel this need to all be jammed together and they have these giant flare ups because that doesn’t work when someone’s definition of racism isn’t woke enough for someone else’s.”

    Pundit and I both play D&D. I’m not going to stop because he’s into it. And his being a fan of the same thing I like doesn’t (necessarily) make it bad. (The same way video games or Star Wars or whatever aren’t bad because they also have a posse of dumb fans.) To my consternation we are stuck together in this way.

    All I can do is make myself visible and make space for people who are into D&D and aren’t garbage people. Which is likely all anyone can do. (Pundit likely feels he’s doing the same thing with his forum and his quick defence of his posse of idiots.)

  20. Posted this elsewhere, “My personal take is it’s better for people to understand the OSR is a disparate space than try and make it a monolith. I think what’s makes this scene good is that there is space for Tenkar and Pundit and Zak and whomever else. I think what makes the indie scene stupid is that they feel this need to all be jammed together and they have these giant flare ups because that doesn’t work when someone’s definition of racism isn’t woke enough for someone else’s.”

    Pundit and I both play D&D. I’m not going to stop because he’s into it. And his being a fan of the same thing I like doesn’t (necessarily) make it bad. (The same way video games or Star Wars or whatever aren’t bad because they also have a posse of dumb fans.) To my consternation we are stuck together in this way.

    All I can do is make myself visible and make space for people who are into D&D and aren’t garbage people. Which is likely all anyone can do. (Pundit likely feels he’s doing the same thing with his forum and his quick defence of his posse of idiots.)

  21. To address the side point that had me plussed into this thread, I think the OSR is a disparate phenomenon, not a community. But in that regard it’s no different than the broader RPG hobby. There are communities: The Gauntlet, The RPG Site, rpg.net and so on, who can police member behavior because they control membership.

    For broader movements, fandoms, etc. I think Jason Cordova is right, “policing” consists of actions like Stuart’s, which move the Overton window and make reactionary assholes realize that, no, they’re not just saying what we’re all thinking.

  22. To address the side point that had me plussed into this thread, I think the OSR is a disparate phenomenon, not a community. But in that regard it’s no different than the broader RPG hobby. There are communities: The Gauntlet, The RPG Site, rpg.net and so on, who can police member behavior because they control membership.

    For broader movements, fandoms, etc. I think Jason Cordova is right, “policing” consists of actions like Stuart’s, which move the Overton window and make reactionary assholes realize that, no, they’re not just saying what we’re all thinking.

  23. Venger’s post triggered people (in the OSR) to come out and dunk on him once again, Stuart to say his OSR logo isn’t meant to be used to harm people, etc.

    James’ post with Peterson triggered people (in the OSR) to come out and dunk on him once again, Kiel to publicly cut his ties with LotFP, etc. There is a really long thread happening right now started by an actual pillar of the OSR (Jeff Rients) about this whole topic. https://jrients.blogspot.com/2018/11/so-lets-talk-about-this-thing.html. And if you don’t like what he said, there is likely someone commenting on that post right now who agrees with you and is saying as much.

    We can likely keep going back in time for any random ass situation where “someone was being dumb in the OSR” and there is some discussion about it within the OSR. At least in this G+ space. The forums are monstrous.

  24. Venger’s post triggered people (in the OSR) to come out and dunk on him once again, Stuart to say his OSR logo isn’t meant to be used to harm people, etc.

    James’ post with Peterson triggered people (in the OSR) to come out and dunk on him once again, Kiel to publicly cut his ties with LotFP, etc. There is a really long thread happening right now started by an actual pillar of the OSR (Jeff Rients) about this whole topic. https://jrients.blogspot.com/2018/11/so-lets-talk-about-this-thing.html. And if you don’t like what he said, there is likely someone commenting on that post right now who agrees with you and is saying as much.

    We can likely keep going back in time for any random ass situation where “someone was being dumb in the OSR” and there is some discussion about it within the OSR. At least in this G+ space. The forums are monstrous.

  31. Ramanan S “He has a couple hundred followers on Twitter and almost no traction here.” Not that it matters much but he has two different accounts on g+. One has almost 2000 followers.

  32. Ramanan S “He has a couple hundred followers on Twitter and almost no traction here.” Not that it matters much but he has two different accounts on g+. One has almost 2000 followers.

  39. This statement seems like a positive move, regardless of whether there is a coherent entity known as the OSR or whether the OSR qualifies as a community or a diffuse network or whatever. The bottom line is that we should call out oppressive behavior whenever we encounter it. If we don’t, then we tacitly endorse the oppression of others. There are real costs to inaction: Just recently, Evlyn M decided to drop out of gaming due to transphobic toxicity. Lots of people expressed remorse. I wish I heard more PLEDGES to stand up for the marginalized members of our communities.

  40. This statement seems like a positive move, regardless of whether there is a coherent entity known as the OSR or whether the OSR qualifies as a community or a diffuse network or whatever. The bottom line is that we should call out oppressive behavior whenever we encounter it. If we don’t, then we tacitly endorse the oppression of others. There are real costs to inaction: Just recently, Evlyn M decided to drop out of gaming due to transphobic toxicity. Lots of people expressed remorse. I wish I heard more PLEDGES to stand up for the marginalized members of our communities.

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