I’m listening to an older +1 Forward episode, and it’s highlighting for me something that might explain why I’ve been having trouble getting into PbtA games. For me what grabs me about a roleplaying game is the setting. I’m fine with (in fact am a big fan of) creating the local setting around the PCs at the table. But for the larger setting as a whole, especially things like metaphysics, and cultures? That’s something that really drives me to play a game. If I find something about the setting that I really enjoy I will then love the game as a whole. Collaboratively creating that at the table, especially in play means it will always be a lackluster curiosity for me, rather than something that gets me all excited.
Anyway, I thought I would share that. It makes me sad, because there are a lot of things that Apocalypse World does mechanically and have been carried on in other games that I really like, but it seems like one thing that also gets carried forward is an aversion to a rich setting.
All is not lost, Joshua!
I’ve run Apocalypse World as the system in established settings, and it works great!
Example 1: I used the Doomsday Seattle map for a setting for an AW game.
Example 2: I ran AW set on Tatooine and it was awesome.
All is not lost, Joshua!
I’ve run Apocalypse World as the system in established settings, and it works great!
Example 1: I used the Doomsday Seattle map for a setting for an AW game.
Example 2: I ran AW set on Tatooine and it was awesome.
Richard Rogers maybe I should bite the bullet and finally write down my ideas for a fan conversion of PbtA Changeling the Dreaming.
Richard Rogers maybe I should bite the bullet and finally write down my ideas for a fan conversion of PbtA Changeling the Dreaming.
Joshua Hillerup Um. Yes please!!!!!
Joshua Hillerup Um. Yes please!!!!!
So you prefer offloading the setting work onto a GM? That’s good if you have a GM that wants that burden…
So you prefer offloading the setting work onto a GM? That’s good if you have a GM that wants that burden…
Albert Billings no? I prefer offloading it to the game designers.
Albert Billings no? I prefer offloading it to the game designers.
Joshua Hillerup Have you seen Lowell Francis’s PbtA Changeling: the Lost hack? It’s super good!
Joshua Hillerup Have you seen Lowell Francis’s PbtA Changeling: the Lost hack? It’s super good!
Richard Rogers yes, and I was greatly excited until I realized it was Lost and not Dreaming. Those two games are less similar than Monsterhearts and Urban Shadows.
I would read it over again for inspiration though.
Richard Rogers yes, and I was greatly excited until I realized it was Lost and not Dreaming. Those two games are less similar than Monsterhearts and Urban Shadows.
I would read it over again for inspiration though.
Joshua Hillerup I would imagine you could tweak Dungeon World to do Changeling the Dreaming.
Joshua Hillerup I would imagine you could tweak Dungeon World to do Changeling the Dreaming.
I think it would take more than a tweak. And doing it properly would require more moves (broken up into categories) than lots of PbtA fans would be comfortable with, but it could still be useful.
I think it would take more than a tweak. And doing it properly would require more moves (broken up into categories) than lots of PbtA fans would be comfortable with, but it could still be useful.
The notion that PbtA isn’t good for rich settings is one that should be dispensed with immediately. I believe the idea is kind of a holdover from the indie scene pushing back against heavily GM-driven, traditional games. But the fact is you can make rich settings work in PbtA games. I’ll take a second to plug Fear of a Black Dragon podcast and say this is something Tom and I talk about all the time. I’ll back up Richard Rogers here with the example of Tom McGrenery using AW to run The Ultraviolet Grasslands, which I’m told worked like a charm.
The notion that PbtA isn’t good for rich settings is one that should be dispensed with immediately. I believe the idea is kind of a holdover from the indie scene pushing back against heavily GM-driven, traditional games. But the fact is you can make rich settings work in PbtA games. I’ll take a second to plug Fear of a Black Dragon podcast and say this is something Tom and I talk about all the time. I’ll back up Richard Rogers here with the example of Tom McGrenery using AW to run The Ultraviolet Grasslands, which I’m told worked like a charm.
Another thing, Joshua. There are some PbtA games with pretty deep settings. Headspace has a few nicely detailed settings. There are a bunch of Dungeon World settings (Green Law of Varkith, Cold Ruins of Lastlife, and Last Days of Angelkite from Magpie Games), and the upcoming Hydro Hackers has lots of grabby setting material.
Another thing, Joshua. There are some PbtA games with pretty deep settings. Headspace has a few nicely detailed settings. There are a bunch of Dungeon World settings (Green Law of Varkith, Cold Ruins of Lastlife, and Last Days of Angelkite from Magpie Games), and the upcoming Hydro Hackers has lots of grabby setting material.
Jason Cordova I was basing that on Richard Rogers and Rach Shelkey describing on the December 31 episode of +1 Forward how most PbtA games have the setting created by the table rather than big thick sections of the book talking about it. I get the difference between most and all though, and I didn’t mean to imply it was something mechanical about the system, rather it seems to be more of a cultural thing.
Jason Cordova I was basing that on Richard Rogers and Rach Shelkey describing on the December 31 episode of +1 Forward how most PbtA games have the setting created by the table rather than big thick sections of the book talking about it. I get the difference between most and all though, and I didn’t mean to imply it was something mechanical about the system, rather it seems to be more of a cultural thing.
Joshua Hillerup We did assert that, and I do see it as an aspect of many PbtA game designs.
(oh! I forgot all the background stuff for Urban Shadows and Masks!)
Joshua Hillerup We did assert that, and I do see it as an aspect of many PbtA game designs.
(oh! I forgot all the background stuff for Urban Shadows and Masks!)
Richard Rogers Headspace is an example of a game that doesn’t grab me because I don’t find the setting detailed enough. There’s a few short samples, and it encourages the group to make their own potentially instead. Which is fine if that’s what you like, but it isn’t the sort of detail I’m talking about. Compare that to Nobilis, or even a single corebook of a World of Darkness game.
Richard Rogers Headspace is an example of a game that doesn’t grab me because I don’t find the setting detailed enough. There’s a few short samples, and it encourages the group to make their own potentially instead. Which is fine if that’s what you like, but it isn’t the sort of detail I’m talking about. Compare that to Nobilis, or even a single corebook of a World of Darkness game.
Joshua Hillerup I agree 100% it’s a cultural thing.
Joshua Hillerup I agree 100% it’s a cultural thing.
Joshua Hillerup Fair point, I get what you mean about Headspace being a setting starter more than a Corebook.
Joshua Hillerup Fair point, I get what you mean about Headspace being a setting starter more than a Corebook.
Alas for the Awful Sea comes with a lot of detailed setting material in the book (plus an extensive adventure that makes up about a third of it).
Alas for the Awful Sea comes with a lot of detailed setting material in the book (plus an extensive adventure that makes up about a third of it).
I used Necromunda with AW1e for a one-shot.
I used Necromunda with AW1e for a one-shot.
Joshua Hillerup, over the years, I have repeatedly found myself drawn to rich, detailed settings… attached the games with terrible mechanics (particularly Exalted, Earthdawn, Shadowrun and some d20 settings like Ptolus, Eberron, and Midnight).
But there is nothing intrinsic in PbtA games that prevents you from using such settings in a game. As an example, Forth World drifts the rules of Dungeon World specifically for play in the world of Earthdawn. (Exalted called for a different solution.)
As for the “sit down and collaboratively come up with setting” parts of some PbtA games, you can easily just retask that part from “what’s the setting like?” to “how do our characters fit into the setting?”, and the effect is the same.
The whole point isn’t really about the setting anyway; it’s to get the player’s invested in the setting and each other’s characters.
Joshua Hillerup, over the years, I have repeatedly found myself drawn to rich, detailed settings… attached the games with terrible mechanics (particularly Exalted, Earthdawn, Shadowrun and some d20 settings like Ptolus, Eberron, and Midnight).
But there is nothing intrinsic in PbtA games that prevents you from using such settings in a game. As an example, Forth World drifts the rules of Dungeon World specifically for play in the world of Earthdawn. (Exalted called for a different solution.)
As for the “sit down and collaboratively come up with setting” parts of some PbtA games, you can easily just retask that part from “what’s the setting like?” to “how do our characters fit into the setting?”, and the effect is the same.
The whole point isn’t really about the setting anyway; it’s to get the player’s invested in the setting and each other’s characters.
The upcoming Sigmata: This signal kills fascists looks to have a very deep and intricately developed world built into the books, looking at their Kickstarter. I think it was a trend early on because AW was built with collaborative world building at it’s core. The iterative nature of PBtA has branched into many different games with just as many approaches to gaming, some with lots of lore, some with almost none. You can find what you’re looking for out there. And if not, well part of the beauty of the system is it’s easily hackable.
The upcoming Sigmata: This signal kills fascists looks to have a very deep and intricately developed world built into the books, looking at their Kickstarter. I think it was a trend early on because AW was built with collaborative world building at it’s core. The iterative nature of PBtA has branched into many different games with just as many approaches to gaming, some with lots of lore, some with almost none. You can find what you’re looking for out there. And if not, well part of the beauty of the system is it’s easily hackable.
Joshua Kershaw It isn’t upcoming! It was released last week!
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/247973/SIGMATA-This-Signal-Kills-Fascists
Joshua Kershaw It isn’t upcoming! It was released last week!
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/247973/SIGMATA-This-Signal-Kills-Fascists
I’ve seen it posted in the past that having an established setting is horrible, and is absolutely something opposed to PBTA. I’ve never agreed with that assertion personally. Even the most detailed settings leave plenty of room for the local creativity that is the bread and butter of PBTA IMO. How much do you need it baked into the system? That’s the tricky part.
I’ve seen it posted in the past that having an established setting is horrible, and is absolutely something opposed to PBTA. I’ve never agreed with that assertion personally. Even the most detailed settings leave plenty of room for the local creativity that is the bread and butter of PBTA IMO. How much do you need it baked into the system? That’s the tricky part.