I have been thinking about the Toronto massacre quite a bit. In addition to being utterly horrific, the Gauntlet has a lot of ties to the Toronto gaming scene. I’ll confess to knowing absolutely nothing about the incel phenomenon before this happened, and so I started doing some research.
Some notes from my research: I suppose it shouldn’t be surprising that some young men feel entitled to sex, and that society’s failure to give them (their version of) what they want is reason enough for them to lash out violently. As a gay man, one of the things I am keenly aware of is just how much society fucks up little boys. Like, we just fuck them up to no end. Little boys are actually extremely sensitive and friendship-oriented, but then we shame them for it until they start acting like “men.” And so, of course, many young men never learn to process their emotions, they never learn how to make genuine, lasting friendships; all that matters is how tough they are and how competitive they are. Some of these young men will go on to be the “winners” and some will go on to be the “losers.” (I am putting those in quotes here because many of the guys who go on to be “winners” will be deeply unhappy later in life because they have no real friendships and because they bottle up their feelings until it kills them.)
There is a gaming point to be made here: the Gauntlet, as a community, rejects this notion that we shouldn’t talk about how we feel. We practice a really active care and concern for one another. If you are having a rough patch, if the day is getting the best of you, you can say what you need to say in our Slack and no one will tell you to toughen up, no one will shame you for being weak, and, indeed, someone will ask “Is there anything I can do to support you?” This has been part of our community culture for a long time. But what I find fascinating and occasionally frustrating is how our community is perceived by outsiders. And that perception is 100% colored by a culture of toxic masculinity. The number one thing I hear is some version of “The Gauntlet is a cult.” Imagine that! Imagine being so confounded by the idea of a group of people who are genuinely kind to one another that the only way you can understand it is to call it a cult. Another common perception, usually from women, is that there is something… untrustworthy about the Gauntlet, a vague sense that something is off about our community. Those perceptions are coming from a more legit place–our community is largely male, and online spaces dominated by men are often extremely toxic–but they’re also dead wrong, and again, it really comes down to how we are trained to view masculinity.
All of this is to say that fixing young men isn’t going to be easy. On a macro level, it might even be impossible. But one thing we can all do is manage our spaces; we can choose to change the cultures we exist in. And I should say: it’s not solely on women to change these cultures. Men have to do that work, too. In fact, it’s probably more important that men do it.
Anyway, this incel business has been on my mind. It kills me that this is a thing happening in our culture right now, but I take a small comfort in knowing I am managing my spaces for the better.
I’ve been a certain age and lamented that I would ever get a girlfriend or sex. So I can understand that. What I don’t understand is the fucking sense of entitlement. And the sense of rage. It’s disgusting and depressing.
Thanks for creating a community that works against that.
I’ve been a certain age and lamented that I would ever get a girlfriend or sex. So I can understand that. What I don’t understand is the fucking sense of entitlement. And the sense of rage. It’s disgusting and depressing.
Thanks for creating a community that works against that.
Robert Bohl It isn’t lost on me that I have actually taken a “toughen up” line specifically with you before (obviously no need to go into details here), and that is something I regret. Overall, though, I think we do pretty well, and we hew pretty closely to the values I have highlighted above.
Robert Bohl It isn’t lost on me that I have actually taken a “toughen up” line specifically with you before (obviously no need to go into details here), and that is something I regret. Overall, though, I think we do pretty well, and we hew pretty closely to the values I have highlighted above.
Thanks. That means a lot to hear.
Thanks. That means a lot to hear.
Yeah this incel thing has been on my mind and kept me up last night. It’s really bothering me that such a thing exists. A part of me wants to reach out and try to help these young men who are creating these dialogues that are dangerous for women, dangerous for society, and dangerous for themselves. I just don’t know that trying to interact with them would do any good and that it might just ad “fuel to their fire.”
Yeah this incel thing has been on my mind and kept me up last night. It’s really bothering me that such a thing exists. A part of me wants to reach out and try to help these young men who are creating these dialogues that are dangerous for women, dangerous for society, and dangerous for themselves. I just don’t know that trying to interact with them would do any good and that it might just ad “fuel to their fire.”
This kind of violent misogyny makes me really upset and angry, and I think we’ve all got to take a good, hard look at our gaming culture. This shit has to stop. And we have to stop it.
This kind of violent misogyny makes me really upset and angry, and I think we’ve all got to take a good, hard look at our gaming culture. This shit has to stop. And we have to stop it.
The best explanation I’ve seen (and I wish I could remember who wrote it) is that part of the culture of toxic masculinity is including “has sex with women” in the definition of “man.” So it’s not just that they want sex period and aren’t getting it, on some level they feel denied the ability to “grow up” because if women are allowed to refuse sex then women are the arbiters of their manhood.
Which is fucked up, but aside from continuing to promote non-awful ways of being a guy, I have no idea how to address that.
The best explanation I’ve seen (and I wish I could remember who wrote it) is that part of the culture of toxic masculinity is including “has sex with women” in the definition of “man.” So it’s not just that they want sex period and aren’t getting it, on some level they feel denied the ability to “grow up” because if women are allowed to refuse sex then women are the arbiters of their manhood.
Which is fucked up, but aside from continuing to promote non-awful ways of being a guy, I have no idea how to address that.
As a father of young kids of both genders, (and a man who’s never been great at performing traditional domains of socially expected masculinity), I hope to be as aware as possible to the ways the cultures we’re in shape and influence my kiddos particularly regarding gender. It’s such a challenge to even know what non-toxic masculinity or femininity means, let alone what adults in this society can do to foster and grow both in both genders of kids.
This reminds me of a fascinating Washington Post article about gender, mental health, entitlement, and other macro-level sociological effects resulting from massive gender disparity in China and India: washingtonpost.com – “There’s too many men”: What happens when women are outnumbered on a massive scale
Regarding other responses to the Gauntlet that you raised Jason Cordova, particularly a vague perception of something untrustworthy or off about the Gauntlet, I wonder if it might be tied to actually how openly people affirm what there is to love about the community. It’s great to affirm how great and meaningful a thing is, but maybe increased trustworthiness could come from an equally open vulnerability of people sharing growth areas, weaknesses, critiques, etc. I appreciate that this self-evaluation does happen, but more often such evaluation or critique comes across outward facing as a foil or contrast to gaming culture or cultures more generally. What other (non-Gauntlet) people or spaces do poorly might be expressed in the same breath as savoring the genuinely beautiful dynamics and relationships and realities that are so great about the Gauntlet. What popular sensibility regards as a cult, among other things, is a place where you won’t hear members openly saying anything bad about the community itself. A trustworthy community empowers and invites critical voices and applies the principle of charity to the dialogue.
As a father of young kids of both genders, (and a man who’s never been great at performing traditional domains of socially expected masculinity), I hope to be as aware as possible to the ways the cultures we’re in shape and influence my kiddos particularly regarding gender. It’s such a challenge to even know what non-toxic masculinity or femininity means, let alone what adults in this society can do to foster and grow both in both genders of kids.
This reminds me of a fascinating Washington Post article about gender, mental health, entitlement, and other macro-level sociological effects resulting from massive gender disparity in China and India: washingtonpost.com – “There’s too many men”: What happens when women are outnumbered on a massive scale
Regarding other responses to the Gauntlet that you raised Jason Cordova, particularly a vague perception of something untrustworthy or off about the Gauntlet, I wonder if it might be tied to actually how openly people affirm what there is to love about the community. It’s great to affirm how great and meaningful a thing is, but maybe increased trustworthiness could come from an equally open vulnerability of people sharing growth areas, weaknesses, critiques, etc. I appreciate that this self-evaluation does happen, but more often such evaluation or critique comes across outward facing as a foil or contrast to gaming culture or cultures more generally. What other (non-Gauntlet) people or spaces do poorly might be expressed in the same breath as savoring the genuinely beautiful dynamics and relationships and realities that are so great about the Gauntlet. What popular sensibility regards as a cult, among other things, is a place where you won’t hear members openly saying anything bad about the community itself. A trustworthy community empowers and invites critical voices and applies the principle of charity to the dialogue.
Somehow I am reminded of…
youtube.com – The Case Against The Jedi Order
Somehow I am reminded of…
youtube.com – The Case Against The Jedi Order
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I think the words are right. I think the actions are obviously more important.
It was noticed that the community, although having some diversity, lacked others in many ways. So: the Gauntlet created an Inclusivity pledge level that is “for you and one other person. The other person must be from a member of a marginalized community, including, but not limited to, women, people of color, people from the queer community, and people facing financial hardship.” Again, action, and something that allows us in the community to more easily help bring in new folks to create a more well-rounded space.
Another issue: we realized through discussion with some of our more tentative new members: it could be tough and overwhelming and discouraging to get into the space due to lack of documentation and not enough welcoming space. The Gauntlet community took steps to make new people joining it feel welcome and more easily able to participate (and I’m glad I’m able to help in that vein).
We find problems with our community. But I’m really so happy with the collaborative way that we’re striving to improve this space. It’s imperfect, like all of us. But I’m constantly encouraged with our direction. I’m hoping these aspects ensure the community remains healthy, and invites more to participate, and just encourages other communities to behave in a way that improves their health as well.
I think the words are right. I think the actions are obviously more important.
It was noticed that the community, although having some diversity, lacked others in many ways. So: the Gauntlet created an Inclusivity pledge level that is “for you and one other person. The other person must be from a member of a marginalized community, including, but not limited to, women, people of color, people from the queer community, and people facing financial hardship.” Again, action, and something that allows us in the community to more easily help bring in new folks to create a more well-rounded space.
Another issue: we realized through discussion with some of our more tentative new members: it could be tough and overwhelming and discouraging to get into the space due to lack of documentation and not enough welcoming space. The Gauntlet community took steps to make new people joining it feel welcome and more easily able to participate (and I’m glad I’m able to help in that vein).
We find problems with our community. But I’m really so happy with the collaborative way that we’re striving to improve this space. It’s imperfect, like all of us. But I’m constantly encouraged with our direction. I’m hoping these aspects ensure the community remains healthy, and invites more to participate, and just encourages other communities to behave in a way that improves their health as well.
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Tomer Gurantz I’m heartened to hear that there is an on-going conversation (and action) about how to make the Gauntlet even more welcoming to underrepresented groups. Is most of that dialogue occuring on Slack? If so, I wonder if more of the conversation could be moved to G+. That way, people from those underrepresented groups who are interested in the Gauntlet but hold some reservations can still contribute their ideas.
Tomer Gurantz I’m heartened to hear that there is an on-going conversation (and action) about how to make the Gauntlet even more welcoming to underrepresented groups. Is most of that dialogue occuring on Slack? If so, I wonder if more of the conversation could be moved to G+. That way, people from those underrepresented groups who are interested in the Gauntlet but hold some reservations can still contribute their ideas.
Ludere Melior Yah, part of the reason I mention that stuff in my post is I know I have visibility to those conversations as they occur in the deepness of the slack whirlpool. But I think that’s a good call about having a similar thread up here in G+ land, and maybe this is that initial stab that will get that going.
Ludere Melior Yah, part of the reason I mention that stuff in my post is I know I have visibility to those conversations as they occur in the deepness of the slack whirlpool. But I think that’s a good call about having a similar thread up here in G+ land, and maybe this is that initial stab that will get that going.
Jason Cordova I would want to hear from the women who have expressed concern about participating in the Gauntlet community. Unfortunately, I don’t think calling their concerns a “vague sense” or saying that their perception is “dead wrong” is likely to encourage dialogue. Rather, as you stated earlier in your post, we should be asking, “Is there anything we can do to support you?” I’m sure you do want to support and welcome more women into the community. I don’t think that section of your post helps that goal and actually works against it.
Jason Cordova I would want to hear from the women who have expressed concern about participating in the Gauntlet community. Unfortunately, I don’t think calling their concerns a “vague sense” or saying that their perception is “dead wrong” is likely to encourage dialogue. Rather, as you stated earlier in your post, we should be asking, “Is there anything we can do to support you?” I’m sure you do want to support and welcome more women into the community. I don’t think that section of your post helps that goal and actually works against it.
Ludere Melior Thanks for the input. I can’t disagree with that, but I do think we’re getting a bit beyond the scope of the post in this thread, which was definitely not about looking inward vis a vis the Gauntlet. That’s always a great conversation, and one that we engage in quite a bit, especially on Slack, but maybe not for this thread.
Ludere Melior Thanks for the input. I can’t disagree with that, but I do think we’re getting a bit beyond the scope of the post in this thread, which was definitely not about looking inward vis a vis the Gauntlet. That’s always a great conversation, and one that we engage in quite a bit, especially on Slack, but maybe not for this thread.
+Ludere Melior thank you. This is the right way to address concerns expressed by marginalized groups. Moving forward, I hope this critique is taken to heart, because being a safe and inclusive space isn’t a label community owners get to claim, it’s a label continuously, actively earned, and that section is inherently counter to making the community safe and inclusive for women. Marginalized concerns always trump the self-perception of a community, business, or individual. Never dismiss, always invite dialogue.
+Ludere Melior thank you. This is the right way to address concerns expressed by marginalized groups. Moving forward, I hope this critique is taken to heart, because being a safe and inclusive space isn’t a label community owners get to claim, it’s a label continuously, actively earned, and that section is inherently counter to making the community safe and inclusive for women. Marginalized concerns always trump the self-perception of a community, business, or individual. Never dismiss, always invite dialogue.
This is the second time I’ve heard of guys having a temper tantrum over not getting a woman. The other was in California. I guess what they did is a step up to so many of these guys just raping, strangling, and dumping the woman’s body on the side of the road. -+–+-
Were they so horrendous or did they just ask a few out and give up? Women can be picky these days because the responsibility and the level of disrespect you get from the relationship doesn’t make it appealing. ——– Being original, being with a puppy at the park, smiling and being open and friendly…these could all help. —— Some people think they are too ugly, but I’ve seen people super thin, or with glasses, or overweight with girlfriends. ——– But another thing I have noticed is many guys on the not so great looks spectrum think they are entitled to Barbie and won’t even consider a girl in their league.
This is the second time I’ve heard of guys having a temper tantrum over not getting a woman. The other was in California. I guess what they did is a step up to so many of these guys just raping, strangling, and dumping the woman’s body on the side of the road. -+–+-
Were they so horrendous or did they just ask a few out and give up? Women can be picky these days because the responsibility and the level of disrespect you get from the relationship doesn’t make it appealing. ——– Being original, being with a puppy at the park, smiling and being open and friendly…these could all help. —— Some people think they are too ugly, but I’ve seen people super thin, or with glasses, or overweight with girlfriends. ——– But another thing I have noticed is many guys on the not so great looks spectrum think they are entitled to Barbie and won’t even consider a girl in their league.
Question about the Inclusivity Friend level – if all the slots for that are claimed, is there another way to cover someone else’s patronage?
There are a few local RPG groups, but I’d like to extend a Gauntlet invite to someone from the category list or with a handicap that makes playing in person hard.
Question about the Inclusivity Friend level – if all the slots for that are claimed, is there another way to cover someone else’s patronage?
There are a few local RPG groups, but I’d like to extend a Gauntlet invite to someone from the category list or with a handicap that makes playing in person hard.
Shawn McCarthy The initial level was mostly a test to see how it would be received. It was a big hit, so we’re looking at ways of expanding it. Our main thing is we are always mindful of the growth of RSVP priority spots; we try to pace it out with growth of the Gauntlet Hangouts calendar.
Shawn McCarthy The initial level was mostly a test to see how it would be received. It was a big hit, so we’re looking at ways of expanding it. Our main thing is we are always mindful of the growth of RSVP priority spots; we try to pace it out with growth of the Gauntlet Hangouts calendar.
Jason Cordova Thanks – I’ll keep an eye. In meantime I might just gift a few Codex issues if anyone raises their hand and offer to run side games for locals.
Jason Cordova Thanks – I’ll keep an eye. In meantime I might just gift a few Codex issues if anyone raises their hand and offer to run side games for locals.