There is a game that is currently on Kickstarter that has been bugging the fuck out of me since it launched yesterday. I’m not going to call it out by name, but I do want to highlight a few issues I have with it:
-The author spent a fair amount of time in our spaces and received feedback on his work but does not acknowledge this anywhere on the KS page or the published materials. A simple shout-out to the Gauntlet could have avoided this post (if not for the third point I make below).
-The author did a thing that a lot of game designers have historically done to us that pisses me off: used us for whatever promotional or creative advantage they thought they could glean and then ditched us when their project was over. In this case, the person literally told me “I have gotten all I can out of this community.” Fuck. That.
-The author has assembled a team of five people to work on this book and none of them are women. How many times do we have to keep having this conversation in the hobby? It would be one thing if this was the first KS project by this team. It is not. In fact, the indie side of the hobby has always been very generous with this particular publishing outfit. We have a right to say: do better! At this point, I really think the author should go ahead and announce the first stretch goal writer and make sure that person is a woman.
Ok. Apologies for starting the day in such a negative way. I’m not suggesting here that anyone should or should not back any particular KS project. That is not my role here. My role is to look out for the interests of this community and to make plain our values. You can do whatever you want with that (and your money).
Free riding needs to be called out (within reason) for an open community to work. Good you said your piece.
Free riding needs to be called out (within reason) for an open community to work. Good you said your piece.
I mean, it could be that the author simply didn’t find anything of value in our spaces. I can’t say I was paying particularly close attention to those specific interactions. BUT, the language on that KS page reads like an episode of one of our podcasts. That’s how I know he got something out of it. As a general matter, I don’t think anyone owes us anything. People can take, use, enjoy as they wish. But would it have been that hard to just say “Hey, a little shout-out to the Gauntlet community for XYZ?” I mean, fuck. It’s Maintaining Relationships 101. And it would have gone a LONG way with me personally since this person had already kind of unceremoniously given us the boot.
I mean, it could be that the author simply didn’t find anything of value in our spaces. I can’t say I was paying particularly close attention to those specific interactions. BUT, the language on that KS page reads like an episode of one of our podcasts. That’s how I know he got something out of it. As a general matter, I don’t think anyone owes us anything. People can take, use, enjoy as they wish. But would it have been that hard to just say “Hey, a little shout-out to the Gauntlet community for XYZ?” I mean, fuck. It’s Maintaining Relationships 101. And it would have gone a LONG way with me personally since this person had already kind of unceremoniously given us the boot.
I mean, this is part of a larger problem with game design in general – that game designers are dishonest about not acknowledging the MANY people who were instrumental in shaping and influencing the game. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make an even halfway decent game without any outside assistance or influence, but unfortunately our hobby treats game designers are SOLITARY GENIUSES who go into their genius cave and pull fully finished games out of their genius brains, and that’s just not true.
That’s part of why a list of acknowledgements goes in the alpha draft of every game that I write and gets updated throughout. (And why The Gauntlet got some pretty huge props in The Watch 🙂 )
I mean, this is part of a larger problem with game design in general – that game designers are dishonest about not acknowledging the MANY people who were instrumental in shaping and influencing the game. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make an even halfway decent game without any outside assistance or influence, but unfortunately our hobby treats game designers are SOLITARY GENIUSES who go into their genius cave and pull fully finished games out of their genius brains, and that’s just not true.
That’s part of why a list of acknowledgements goes in the alpha draft of every game that I write and gets updated throughout. (And why The Gauntlet got some pretty huge props in The Watch 🙂 )
It seems like they are deliberately going for “we’re leaning on the past.” which, of course, ignorantly ignores the female gamers and designers of the past, but whatever. If you’re really invested in nostalgia-humping, then hanging a “no gurls” sign on the clubhouse is just the logical next step.
It seems like they are deliberately going for “we’re leaning on the past.” which, of course, ignorantly ignores the female gamers and designers of the past, but whatever. If you’re really invested in nostalgia-humping, then hanging a “no gurls” sign on the clubhouse is just the logical next step.
I’ll be honest, I kind of worry about this “using” The Gauntlet thing happening more… I am obviously fine with established Gauntlet community members designing and playtesting with us but when a designer suddenly shows up and starts soliciting for playtestsers (continuously) or constantly bangs the drum about their Kickstarter… It starts to wear on you and feel disingenuous.
I’ll be honest, I kind of worry about this “using” The Gauntlet thing happening more… I am obviously fine with established Gauntlet community members designing and playtesting with us but when a designer suddenly shows up and starts soliciting for playtestsers (continuously) or constantly bangs the drum about their Kickstarter… It starts to wear on you and feel disingenuous.
Shane Liebling Yeah, it’s tough. As a general matter, I want to support independent creators. You know, if someone is running sessions of their game on Gauntlet Hangouts, I think it’s ok to then advertise to our community. I welcome that, because they’re also giving to the community in their way. A Patreon pledge functions in a similar way for me–it’s about being committed to our mutual success. Not everyone is going to read the room right, and I get that. Some folks don’t quite understand the community aspect of the Gauntlet, and how to navigate that properly. I fully understand that, and I try to be as generous as possible as far as that goes.
But there is a way to operate in a space that just kind of leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
And, somewhat separate from the above, in this particular instance, the failure to hire a woman (as far as we know) is just kind of unacceptable at this point in the game.
Shane Liebling Yeah, it’s tough. As a general matter, I want to support independent creators. You know, if someone is running sessions of their game on Gauntlet Hangouts, I think it’s ok to then advertise to our community. I welcome that, because they’re also giving to the community in their way. A Patreon pledge functions in a similar way for me–it’s about being committed to our mutual success. Not everyone is going to read the room right, and I get that. Some folks don’t quite understand the community aspect of the Gauntlet, and how to navigate that properly. I fully understand that, and I try to be as generous as possible as far as that goes.
But there is a way to operate in a space that just kind of leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
And, somewhat separate from the above, in this particular instance, the failure to hire a woman (as far as we know) is just kind of unacceptable at this point in the game.
I’ll be honest, I was terrified of coming off like this when I joined the community – just there to spout off about my own designs, etc. Many months later I’m feeling much more comfortable here, but it’s such a lovely, vibrant dynamic community that I’m surprised any designer would walk away from it. The value provided by the accumulated game wisdom and actual play experience really should be obvious.
I’ll be honest, I was terrified of coming off like this when I joined the community – just there to spout off about my own designs, etc. Many months later I’m feeling much more comfortable here, but it’s such a lovely, vibrant dynamic community that I’m surprised any designer would walk away from it. The value provided by the accumulated game wisdom and actual play experience really should be obvious.
Hey everyone. A lot to unpack here. Jason Cordova I reached out to you on g-chat this morning, would love to have more of a back and forth discussion if you’re willing. Otherwise I’ll respond here and try to explain a few things. No rush either way, and I absolutely invite any and all criticism on my company and products.
Hey everyone. A lot to unpack here. Jason Cordova I reached out to you on g-chat this morning, would love to have more of a back and forth discussion if you’re willing. Otherwise I’ll respond here and try to explain a few things. No rush either way, and I absolutely invite any and all criticism on my company and products.
Ben Dutter Setting aside stuff specific to the Gauntlet (which is the least important thing here): do you have a woman lined up as a stretch goal writer?
Ben Dutter Setting aside stuff specific to the Gauntlet (which is the least important thing here): do you have a woman lined up as a stretch goal writer?
Jason Cordova I don’t have any stretch goal writers, per se, as I’m on the only writer on the entire project. So, no. I’ve written everything already.
A large part of the reason Vagabonds is so light on other contributors is due to costs and the goal of the game to be as “lean” from a production standpoint as possible. The art was all pre-purchased stock except for some previously negotiated pieces from Per Folmer, who’s a long time friend and collaborator.
I had a lot of pre-paid credits to other folks who I had lined up for other projects prior to Stewart’s death, and so those folks (Josh, Evan, etc) came together to help me whip Vagabonds up.
Jason Cordova I don’t have any stretch goal writers, per se, as I’m on the only writer on the entire project. So, no. I’ve written everything already.
A large part of the reason Vagabonds is so light on other contributors is due to costs and the goal of the game to be as “lean” from a production standpoint as possible. The art was all pre-purchased stock except for some previously negotiated pieces from Per Folmer, who’s a long time friend and collaborator.
I had a lot of pre-paid credits to other folks who I had lined up for other projects prior to Stewart’s death, and so those folks (Josh, Evan, etc) came together to help me whip Vagabonds up.
Jim Crocker I have a feeling a bunch of us are going to spend some money there during Dreamation 😉
Jim Crocker I have a feeling a bunch of us are going to spend some money there during Dreamation 😉
Just wanted to clarify one quick thing regarding the Gauntlet community and Patreon too Jason Cordova, I did get value and a ton of feedback from the community, which absolutely deserves acknowledgement.
I haven’t yet made any acknowledgements to anyone yet in the alpha draft, which is really just an oversight on my part (I haven’t listed playtesters, inspirations, or anything other than the actual artists in the book).
As far as the Patreon, I had to cancel due to financial restrictions. SSP did not have a good 2017, and at the end of the year I ceased all of my Patreon activity and significantly cut back my RPG budget (both personally and professionally). I can see how it seems like I came in, took what I wanted, and left without so much as a thank you.
But, I think it was just poor communication on my part and not wanting to dredge up all of the painful things that happened with my business last year that forced that decision.
In any case, I appreciate communities that keep creators and companies responsible, and call them out when necessary. On a personal level, I’m glad that the Gauntlet exists and that I was (for a brief time, at least) a part of the Patreon-community.
Just wanted to clarify one quick thing regarding the Gauntlet community and Patreon too Jason Cordova, I did get value and a ton of feedback from the community, which absolutely deserves acknowledgement.
I haven’t yet made any acknowledgements to anyone yet in the alpha draft, which is really just an oversight on my part (I haven’t listed playtesters, inspirations, or anything other than the actual artists in the book).
As far as the Patreon, I had to cancel due to financial restrictions. SSP did not have a good 2017, and at the end of the year I ceased all of my Patreon activity and significantly cut back my RPG budget (both personally and professionally). I can see how it seems like I came in, took what I wanted, and left without so much as a thank you.
But, I think it was just poor communication on my part and not wanting to dredge up all of the painful things that happened with my business last year that forced that decision.
In any case, I appreciate communities that keep creators and companies responsible, and call them out when necessary. On a personal level, I’m glad that the Gauntlet exists and that I was (for a brief time, at least) a part of the Patreon-community.
I mean, speaking for myself here as a woman-appearing NB person, and Jason Cordova sorry if this is too much of a sidebar to your initial topic, but honestly, not hiring non-cisdudes in your core team and then fostering the appearance of diversity by lining up a roster of non-cisdude stretch goals to give yourself “inclusivity cred” is honestly a shitty way to approach diversity – although it is at least better than having no non-cisdudes at all, as Jason points out.
The problem is that stretch goal content is small, and comes both with less prestige and less money for the designers. It also involves, often, a lot of free work from the people you’re purporting to boost – often with no tangible result, as the nature of stretch goals means that the probability of their goal not funding is nontrivial and your non-cisdude goal author/designer will have ended up doing free labor promoting your product and coming up with a pitch for no compensation.
Stretch goal contributors also only get a one-time payment, despite contributing to the growth of overall ongoing royalties for the “core” authors. And of course, there’s the issue that this stretch goal approach to diversity makes the people that you’re recruiting feel tokenized. (I speak from personal experience on this one.)
There are also solid business reasons besides not tokenizing women, femmes, and nbs to not have all-dude core teams – like the fact that having core design teams that are all dudes means you miss out on the improvements in quality that come from having a diversity of backgrounds and perspectives brings.
So. You know. I support Jason’s position that not having any not-dude involvement is just not acceptable in 2018, but also to everyone else observing this conversation – stretch goal only not-dude participation is similarly just really shitty.
I mean, speaking for myself here as a woman-appearing NB person, and Jason Cordova sorry if this is too much of a sidebar to your initial topic, but honestly, not hiring non-cisdudes in your core team and then fostering the appearance of diversity by lining up a roster of non-cisdude stretch goals to give yourself “inclusivity cred” is honestly a shitty way to approach diversity – although it is at least better than having no non-cisdudes at all, as Jason points out.
The problem is that stretch goal content is small, and comes both with less prestige and less money for the designers. It also involves, often, a lot of free work from the people you’re purporting to boost – often with no tangible result, as the nature of stretch goals means that the probability of their goal not funding is nontrivial and your non-cisdude goal author/designer will have ended up doing free labor promoting your product and coming up with a pitch for no compensation.
Stretch goal contributors also only get a one-time payment, despite contributing to the growth of overall ongoing royalties for the “core” authors. And of course, there’s the issue that this stretch goal approach to diversity makes the people that you’re recruiting feel tokenized. (I speak from personal experience on this one.)
There are also solid business reasons besides not tokenizing women, femmes, and nbs to not have all-dude core teams – like the fact that having core design teams that are all dudes means you miss out on the improvements in quality that come from having a diversity of backgrounds and perspectives brings.
So. You know. I support Jason’s position that not having any not-dude involvement is just not acceptable in 2018, but also to everyone else observing this conversation – stretch goal only not-dude participation is similarly just really shitty.
I got interrupted writing this and ended up cross-posting with @Ben Dutter so please read previous comment accordingly.
I got interrupted writing this and ended up cross-posting with @Ben Dutter so please read previous comment accordingly.
Anna Kreider 100% fair. Yeah, avoid tokenism for sure. But also: start somewhere.
Anna Kreider 100% fair. Yeah, avoid tokenism for sure. But also: start somewhere.
Jason Cordova Sure! Absolutely. I’m just more putting it out there that for the future, people need to build in diversity from the start instead of bolting it on as an afterthought.
Jason Cordova Sure! Absolutely. I’m just more putting it out there that for the future, people need to build in diversity from the start instead of bolting it on as an afterthought.
Jason Cordova How would you like to see designers contributing to the community after bringing their game to market? Are there ways for them to continue to contribute that may be new or different from the way they contribute during the design process?
Jason Cordova How would you like to see designers contributing to the community after bringing their game to market? Are there ways for them to continue to contribute that may be new or different from the way they contribute during the design process?
” In this case, the person literally told me “I have gotten all I can out of this community.”
If this is true, than this is hardly just a case of “I didn’t put the acknowledgements in the text yet, sorry”.
” In this case, the person literally told me “I have gotten all I can out of this community.”
If this is true, than this is hardly just a case of “I didn’t put the acknowledgements in the text yet, sorry”.
I’m going to close up comments. Ben Dutter I appreciate you reaching out and being transparent here. I’ve got some things to think on.
Anna Kreider Thanks for highlighting some important issues here.
Marshall Miller Great question, probably one with a dozen answers, but here is a really simple thing: when we (or really anyone on the “broadcast” side of the hobby, such as Twitch streamers) talk about your game on a podcast or do an actual play or just otherwise give coverage to it, amplify that conversation. Share it out. If you have time, listen or watch and then give feedback. You reach different circles that we do, and boosting stuff like that is mutually beneficial. And good for the indie vector of the hobby, too, right? Dungeons and Dragons has plenty of people talking about it. But how many genuine “media” people are there for indie games and story games? Not many. Our success directly impacts this vector of the hobby.
I’m going to close up comments. Ben Dutter I appreciate you reaching out and being transparent here. I’ve got some things to think on.
Anna Kreider Thanks for highlighting some important issues here.
Marshall Miller Great question, probably one with a dozen answers, but here is a really simple thing: when we (or really anyone on the “broadcast” side of the hobby, such as Twitch streamers) talk about your game on a podcast or do an actual play or just otherwise give coverage to it, amplify that conversation. Share it out. If you have time, listen or watch and then give feedback. You reach different circles that we do, and boosting stuff like that is mutually beneficial. And good for the indie vector of the hobby, too, right? Dungeons and Dragons has plenty of people talking about it. But how many genuine “media” people are there for indie games and story games? Not many. Our success directly impacts this vector of the hobby.