Let’s talk about Powered By The Apocalypse for a moment!

Let’s talk about Powered By The Apocalypse for a moment!

Let’s talk about Powered By The Apocalypse for a moment!

Moves. Hard Moves. Soft Moves. If someone put you on the spot and asked you to explain those phrases, what would you say? How would you describe them?

You do not have access to any references for this exercise. I’m only curious about the answers that come from your experiences and understanding. There are no wrong answers, only interesting ones!

94 thoughts on “Let’s talk about Powered By The Apocalypse for a moment!”

  1. The difference, for me, is how much agency the player has after the move is completed in the fiction. The harder the move the less agency they have, where soft moves leave more agency for reactions and, when left ignored, turn into golden opportunities.

  2. The difference, for me, is how much agency the player has after the move is completed in the fiction. The harder the move the less agency they have, where soft moves leave more agency for reactions and, when left ignored, turn into golden opportunities.

  3. I like the metaphor, I think from Avery Alder​, that soft moves are placing dominoes, hard moves are knocking them down.

    A soft move is a warning, raising tension and prompting your players to act. A hard move is following through on that warning if they don’t react to it, or fail to.

    EG “the rope bridge begins to fray” in a game of DW is a soft move. The players can get off before it breaks. “The bridge collapses, plunging you into the river” is a hard move. It’s irrevocable.

    The fewer soft moves you make before a hard move, the more serious the situation is.

  4. I like the metaphor, I think from Avery Alder​, that soft moves are placing dominoes, hard moves are knocking them down.

    A soft move is a warning, raising tension and prompting your players to act. A hard move is following through on that warning if they don’t react to it, or fail to.

    EG “the rope bridge begins to fray” in a game of DW is a soft move. The players can get off before it breaks. “The bridge collapses, plunging you into the river” is a hard move. It’s irrevocable.

    The fewer soft moves you make before a hard move, the more serious the situation is.

  5. moves = something happens.

    soft moves = something happens that presents a danger

    hard moves = something bad happens. the danger comes to pass, the players get hurt or an oprotunity is lost forever

  6. moves = something happens.

    soft moves = something happens that presents a danger

    hard moves = something bad happens. the danger comes to pass, the players get hurt or an oprotunity is lost forever

  9. Oli Jeffery For the purposes of this exercise, there are no wrong answers. This is not a quiz, it’s polling the internalization of PtbA concepts in the community.

  10. Oli Jeffery For the purposes of this exercise, there are no wrong answers. This is not a quiz, it’s polling the internalization of PtbA concepts in the community.

  11. A move = player’s character initiates and narrates a thing that happens.

    Soft move = GM initiates a warning of a bad thing that will happen if the players can’t stop it.

    Hard move = GM initiates and narrates a bad thing that happens.

  12. A move = player’s character initiates and narrates a thing that happens.

    Soft move = GM initiates a warning of a bad thing that will happen if the players can’t stop it.

    Hard move = GM initiates and narrates a bad thing that happens.

  13. A soft move aims the gun. A hard move pulls the trigger. I tend to think of it in terms of whether I’m giving the player another chance to change the fiction. If it is a soft move, the player still has a chance to change the fiction for the better. If it is a hard move, it is too late.

  14. A soft move aims the gun. A hard move pulls the trigger. I tend to think of it in terms of whether I’m giving the player another chance to change the fiction. If it is a soft move, the player still has a chance to change the fiction for the better. If it is a hard move, it is too late.

  15. I agree with the consensus above, but one thing occurs to me: where do moves that are positive for the players fit? Is putting treasure in front of a character a soft move, because they have an opportunity to react, or a hard move because you skipped the ‘this will happen if…’ stage? I get that MC moves that make things nicer for the players are in the distinct minority, but it’s important to remember they exist 😀

  16. I agree with the consensus above, but one thing occurs to me: where do moves that are positive for the players fit? Is putting treasure in front of a character a soft move, because they have an opportunity to react, or a hard move because you skipped the ‘this will happen if…’ stage? I get that MC moves that make things nicer for the players are in the distinct minority, but it’s important to remember they exist 😀

  19. I sort of think of it in terms of how hard it is to recover from. Soft moves can be complications, another layer of trouble or a small loss but hard moves will mean the character is set back in a way that costs them. They are hurt, they lose something important or get seriously trapped or off track.

  20. I sort of think of it in terms of how hard it is to recover from. Soft moves can be complications, another layer of trouble or a small loss but hard moves will mean the character is set back in a way that costs them. They are hurt, they lose something important or get seriously trapped or off track.

  23. I’d say a soft move is an attempt to get a PC to alter the game state through their response. This can be in the way of a warning, a hint, a temptation, ect. Nothing mechanically has changed yet (locations, resources, obstacle, damage) but the idea is that they soon will if they don’t act (an ignored soft move can excited a hard move). A hard move changes the game state right then and there, which usually gets a reaction. If a player doesn’t react to a hard move, there really isn’t an automatic follow up, but it could trigger new soft moves. For instance, if a mc uses a soft move ‘an ounce future badness’ and says you hear a rustle of somebody sneaking up behind you, the pc might choose to take a nap. This is followed with the hard move ‘seperate the pc’s’ by having them wake up in a dark room with no apparent exit. This is now a new situation for the pc to explore. If they decide to hum Queens complete catalog, the MC could add new moves because the pc is leaving the opportunities, but this really shouldn’t be needed.

  24. I’d say a soft move is an attempt to get a PC to alter the game state through their response. This can be in the way of a warning, a hint, a temptation, ect. Nothing mechanically has changed yet (locations, resources, obstacle, damage) but the idea is that they soon will if they don’t act (an ignored soft move can excited a hard move). A hard move changes the game state right then and there, which usually gets a reaction. If a player doesn’t react to a hard move, there really isn’t an automatic follow up, but it could trigger new soft moves. For instance, if a mc uses a soft move ‘an ounce future badness’ and says you hear a rustle of somebody sneaking up behind you, the pc might choose to take a nap. This is followed with the hard move ‘seperate the pc’s’ by having them wake up in a dark room with no apparent exit. This is now a new situation for the pc to explore. If they decide to hum Queens complete catalog, the MC could add new moves because the pc is leaving the opportunities, but this really shouldn’t be needed.

  25. The line is more gray than you would think. Do Damage in Dungeon World is routinely used on the 7-9 result. If that isn’t “pulling the trigger” I don’t know what is. But I would say in general I like that distinction (aim vs. shoot). It just escalates in high-stakes situations.

  26. The line is more gray than you would think. Do Damage in Dungeon World is routinely used on the 7-9 result. If that isn’t “pulling the trigger” I don’t know what is. But I would say in general I like that distinction (aim vs. shoot). It just escalates in high-stakes situations.

  29. Ray Otus​​ I’d never use Deal Damage as a 7-9. That’s a 6- only. Now, I might give someone a hard choice on a 7-9, that results in them taking damage if they go through with it, but that’s a different thing altogether.

  30. Ray Otus​​ I’d never use Deal Damage as a 7-9. That’s a 6- only. Now, I might give someone a hard choice on a 7-9, that results in them taking damage if they go through with it, but that’s a different thing altogether.

  33. i would say a soft move is more “the archers are shooting at you, how do you avoid their arrows?” and a hard move is “an arrow drives into your leg, you can no longer flee or dodge under your own power. Can one of your friends save you before you become a pin cushion?” The first just asks the player how they want to deal with the problem, the second tells the player that they will need to do something drastic. both can result in damage, but hard moves can remove some options / really change things for the worse.

    soft moves (and maybe hard moves) can be positive for the player, especially if they roll well. you can “offer an opportunity” but there should always be some risk or “cost”. “oh look treasure!…surrounded by bones?…. discern realities…”

  34. i would say a soft move is more “the archers are shooting at you, how do you avoid their arrows?” and a hard move is “an arrow drives into your leg, you can no longer flee or dodge under your own power. Can one of your friends save you before you become a pin cushion?” The first just asks the player how they want to deal with the problem, the second tells the player that they will need to do something drastic. both can result in damage, but hard moves can remove some options / really change things for the worse.

    soft moves (and maybe hard moves) can be positive for the player, especially if they roll well. you can “offer an opportunity” but there should always be some risk or “cost”. “oh look treasure!…surrounded by bones?…. discern realities…”

  35. Oli Jeffery The game text suggests otherwise. I don’t want to quote it at you, but this has been discussed a number of times on the board and it seems to me anyway that the general consensus is you may take damage on a 7-9. If you want, I’ll hunt up the relevant references.

  36. Oli Jeffery The game text suggests otherwise. I don’t want to quote it at you, but this has been discussed a number of times on the board and it seems to me anyway that the general consensus is you may take damage on a 7-9. If you want, I’ll hunt up the relevant references.

  37. Hmmm, Oli Jeffery, you could be right. I think it’s really unclear now that I research it again. I could have sworn this was an “asked and answered” kind of question. Sorry for sounding pedantic about it. Probably the most relevant passages are these two:

    From Hack and Slash

    On a 7–9, you deal your damage to the enemy and the enemy makes an attack against you. …

    The enemy’s counterattack can be any GM move made directly with that creature. A goblin might just attack you back, or they might jam a poisoned needle into your veins. Life’s tough, isn’t it? p.58

    And from the GM Agenda section:

    A soft move ignored becomes a golden opportunity for a hard move. If the players do nothing about the hail of arrows flying towards them it’s a golden opportunity to use the deal damage move.

    Hard moves, on the other hand, have immediate consequences. Dealing damage is almost always a hard move, since it means a loss of HP that won’t be recovered without some action from the players. p.166

    I find that “almost always” caveat interesting.

  38. Hmmm, Oli Jeffery, you could be right. I think it’s really unclear now that I research it again. I could have sworn this was an “asked and answered” kind of question. Sorry for sounding pedantic about it. Probably the most relevant passages are these two:

    From Hack and Slash

    On a 7–9, you deal your damage to the enemy and the enemy makes an attack against you. …

    The enemy’s counterattack can be any GM move made directly with that creature. A goblin might just attack you back, or they might jam a poisoned needle into your veins. Life’s tough, isn’t it? p.58

    And from the GM Agenda section:

    A soft move ignored becomes a golden opportunity for a hard move. If the players do nothing about the hail of arrows flying towards them it’s a golden opportunity to use the deal damage move.

    Hard moves, on the other hand, have immediate consequences. Dealing damage is almost always a hard move, since it means a loss of HP that won’t be recovered without some action from the players. p.166

    I find that “almost always” caveat interesting.

  41. I think it is clear that H&S is an edge case that allows a hard move (such as damage) to be inflicted on a 7-9. But I think Oli’s point may be that inflicting damage is usually the least interesting thing to do in that situation.

  42. I think it is clear that H&S is an edge case that allows a hard move (such as damage) to be inflicted on a 7-9. But I think Oli’s point may be that inflicting damage is usually the least interesting thing to do in that situation.

  43. I was thinking specifically of Defy Danger, which is where you get the biggest freedom over move choice. I also think the language of DW has evolved since the book was released. If damage is inflicted following the fiction, that is a move.

  44. I was thinking specifically of Defy Danger, which is where you get the biggest freedom over move choice. I also think the language of DW has evolved since the book was released. If damage is inflicted following the fiction, that is a move.

  45. Or maybe that “Do Damage” is an edge case. You can always make monster moves in response to a 7-9, sometimes you might want to apply damage at the same time. There’s an example of an ogre flinging someone across the room in the text and the character takes damage as a result because it flows from the fiction.

  46. Or maybe that “Do Damage” is an edge case. You can always make monster moves in response to a 7-9, sometimes you might want to apply damage at the same time. There’s an example of an ogre flinging someone across the room in the text and the character takes damage as a result because it flows from the fiction.

  47. I don’t think it is true that “you can always make monster moves in response to a 7-9.” That is true for H&S, but is not a general rule. It gets a bit squishy on Defy Danger, where a 7-9 hard choice could look a lot like “Choose consequence X, else monster move.”

  48. I don’t think it is true that “you can always make monster moves in response to a 7-9.” That is true for H&S, but is not a general rule. It gets a bit squishy on Defy Danger, where a 7-9 hard choice could look a lot like “Choose consequence X, else monster move.”

  49. I wouldn’t use DW as a typical pbta game in this regard. It’s supposed to simulate the dnd experience, you hit the goblin and the goblin may hot you back, or it may do something else. Really a 7-9 in most pbta in combat just says trade harm as established and call it a day. But the back and forth nature of combat here is pretty different then other pbta games where moves are really structure for altering the plot.

  50. I wouldn’t use DW as a typical pbta game in this regard. It’s supposed to simulate the dnd experience, you hit the goblin and the goblin may hot you back, or it may do something else. Really a 7-9 in most pbta in combat just says trade harm as established and call it a day. But the back and forth nature of combat here is pretty different then other pbta games where moves are really structure for altering the plot.

  51. Will P In which case you are just choosing a different response. I wasn’t saying you always do a monster move, just that it’s an option. If you choose to supply a hard choice instead, or countdown a grim portent, or whatever, that’s cool. It’s just you, the GM, filling that space with a move of some kind.

  52. Will P In which case you are just choosing a different response. I wasn’t saying you always do a monster move, just that it’s an option. If you choose to supply a hard choice instead, or countdown a grim portent, or whatever, that’s cool. It’s just you, the GM, filling that space with a move of some kind.

  53. I have complicated feels.

    For most people, I would say the traditional or more universal way of thinking about hard moves vs soft moves is akin to: “Hard moves are moves that aren’t things you can stop. The thing happens. Your best friend is shot, your lover jumps off a roof. Whatever happens, it’s irreversible and unstoppable in the moment. A soft move is where you set that up. Your love steps closer to the edge, what do you do? A soft move gives the character a chance to act to stop the obvious consequence that’s about to unfold.”

    How do I generally feel? I think it’s a scale. I think there are GM Moves, and they can be softer or harder, as almost all GM Moves end with “What do you do?” Since they end with that, there’s a scale of how hard they are, from your lover jumps off the roof, what do you do? (Implying there’s still movement beyond this action) to saying the lover is just thinking about it, and you have lots of moves and time to try to convince them or stop them.

    Generally when I GM and when I write games, I don’t split between hard and soft moves anymore. I talk about GM Moves, how to make a move, and how to gauge how hard to make them. I think Soft Moves vs Hard Moves in the first explanation I gave are the way to codify good GMing, but leave out a middle ground for escalation beyond step 1 and step 2. I think if you’re playing some really difficult games, like Bluebeard’s Bride, it’s hard to say anything is a soft move when almost everything you’re setting up is already so upsetting and intense. Thus, a scale.

  54. I have complicated feels.

    For most people, I would say the traditional or more universal way of thinking about hard moves vs soft moves is akin to: “Hard moves are moves that aren’t things you can stop. The thing happens. Your best friend is shot, your lover jumps off a roof. Whatever happens, it’s irreversible and unstoppable in the moment. A soft move is where you set that up. Your love steps closer to the edge, what do you do? A soft move gives the character a chance to act to stop the obvious consequence that’s about to unfold.”

    How do I generally feel? I think it’s a scale. I think there are GM Moves, and they can be softer or harder, as almost all GM Moves end with “What do you do?” Since they end with that, there’s a scale of how hard they are, from your lover jumps off the roof, what do you do? (Implying there’s still movement beyond this action) to saying the lover is just thinking about it, and you have lots of moves and time to try to convince them or stop them.

    Generally when I GM and when I write games, I don’t split between hard and soft moves anymore. I talk about GM Moves, how to make a move, and how to gauge how hard to make them. I think Soft Moves vs Hard Moves in the first explanation I gave are the way to codify good GMing, but leave out a middle ground for escalation beyond step 1 and step 2. I think if you’re playing some really difficult games, like Bluebeard’s Bride, it’s hard to say anything is a soft move when almost everything you’re setting up is already so upsetting and intense. Thus, a scale.

  63. I wasn’t clear … I think that the mechanics are elegant. I’m wondering if directing a new GM to think of moves in terms of hard and soft is doing them a disservice.

  64. I wasn’t clear … I think that the mechanics are elegant. I’m wondering if directing a new GM to think of moves in terms of hard and soft is doing them a disservice.

  65. Yeah, some of the language around pbta is what put me off it initially – playbooks instead of classes and so on. It felt a bit like relearning everything, which may be the point? To make you go back and think about it at the root again? That, or it’s indie game hipsterism.

    I haven’t seen the final text of Monsterhearts 2, but I think GM moves are being renamed as hard and soft reactions, which feels more intuitive, less jargony.

  66. Yeah, some of the language around pbta is what put me off it initially – playbooks instead of classes and so on. It felt a bit like relearning everything, which may be the point? To make you go back and think about it at the root again? That, or it’s indie game hipsterism.

    I haven’t seen the final text of Monsterhearts 2, but I think GM moves are being renamed as hard and soft reactions, which feels more intuitive, less jargony.

  77. Exactly. Move feels like you are going to “get a turn.” When I teach people how to play GM’s how to run PbtA I always cover that rhythm. Don’t think of their-turn-your-turn. You won’t get a formal turn. The characters are always “on.” When they stall out, you jump in with a move. When they fail a roll or get a mixed result, you jump in with a move. Swap in reaction for move there and it is more clear.

  78. Exactly. Move feels like you are going to “get a turn.” When I teach people how to play GM’s how to run PbtA I always cover that rhythm. Don’t think of their-turn-your-turn. You won’t get a formal turn. The characters are always “on.” When they stall out, you jump in with a move. When they fail a roll or get a mixed result, you jump in with a move. Swap in reaction for move there and it is more clear.

  79. Considering the MC is essentially just the fiction, I don’t mind “turn” and “move” as terms for the description of what the MC does when they inject what happens next into the fiction.

    I might offer a character solace or comfort as an MC move without reacting to anything in order to setup a scene that will happen or start play. When I take my turn the story does, when I make a move, the fiction can only move forward.

    If I offer an opportunity, and illustrate the consequences, it may not be a reaction at all. It may be what I think the fiction needs so is a reaction…? But I don’t think one term is better than the other? It’s my preference though, I know. I do think making it reaction is more accessible as well, I will say.

  80. Considering the MC is essentially just the fiction, I don’t mind “turn” and “move” as terms for the description of what the MC does when they inject what happens next into the fiction.

    I might offer a character solace or comfort as an MC move without reacting to anything in order to setup a scene that will happen or start play. When I take my turn the story does, when I make a move, the fiction can only move forward.

    If I offer an opportunity, and illustrate the consequences, it may not be a reaction at all. It may be what I think the fiction needs so is a reaction…? But I don’t think one term is better than the other? It’s my preference though, I know. I do think making it reaction is more accessible as well, I will say.

  81. It’s more of a spectrum, IMHO. Soft moves lead into hard moves, but there are hard soft moves and soft hard moves too. You’re basically signaling to the player how much agency they have in a given decision.

    Soft soft move: “You see Coyle sitting at the bar with a shot of whiskey in front of him. He turns his head toward you and his brow furrows. He knocks back the shot with a grimace and jerks his head toward the door to the back room. What do you do?”

    Hard soft move: “You enter the back room. The shaded lamp which usually illuminates the pool table is shining down in a cone on Coyle, who’s gripping the top of a wooden chair resting in the center of the cone. Coyle reaches into his coat pocket and pulls out a pistol he trains on you. ‘Have a seat, Frank. Let’s get this over with.’ What do you do?”

    Soft hard move: “Coyle presses the barrel of the gun into your kneecap, frowning like he’s gotta shoot his rabid dog. ‘Sorry, Frank. Ain’t nothin’ personal. it’s just you broke the rules, is all.’ If you try to move, he’s absolutely going to inflict harm. He’s just too close and too prepared for you to resist. What do you do?”

    Hard hard move: “Coyle pulls the trigger, and there is a bang and a sound like thick clay shattering, and your whole world is pain. Take 2-harm and roll the harm move. Okay, what do you do?”

  82. It’s more of a spectrum, IMHO. Soft moves lead into hard moves, but there are hard soft moves and soft hard moves too. You’re basically signaling to the player how much agency they have in a given decision.

    Soft soft move: “You see Coyle sitting at the bar with a shot of whiskey in front of him. He turns his head toward you and his brow furrows. He knocks back the shot with a grimace and jerks his head toward the door to the back room. What do you do?”

    Hard soft move: “You enter the back room. The shaded lamp which usually illuminates the pool table is shining down in a cone on Coyle, who’s gripping the top of a wooden chair resting in the center of the cone. Coyle reaches into his coat pocket and pulls out a pistol he trains on you. ‘Have a seat, Frank. Let’s get this over with.’ What do you do?”

    Soft hard move: “Coyle presses the barrel of the gun into your kneecap, frowning like he’s gotta shoot his rabid dog. ‘Sorry, Frank. Ain’t nothin’ personal. it’s just you broke the rules, is all.’ If you try to move, he’s absolutely going to inflict harm. He’s just too close and too prepared for you to resist. What do you do?”

    Hard hard move: “Coyle pulls the trigger, and there is a bang and a sound like thick clay shattering, and your whole world is pain. Take 2-harm and roll the harm move. Okay, what do you do?”

  85. Reactions is interesting. In World of Dreams I’ve been toying with explaining the PbtA cycle as Question->Answer->Response->Question …

  86. Reactions is interesting. In World of Dreams I’ve been toying with explaining the PbtA cycle as Question->Answer->Response->Question …

  87. Moves are what happens when player created fiction triggers the mechanics.

    Xxxx moves (hard,soft, GM, dungeon, etc) are the GMs mechanical trigger to the moves which requires delivery of fiction, ending with “What do you do?”

  88. Moves are what happens when player created fiction triggers the mechanics.

    Xxxx moves (hard,soft, GM, dungeon, etc) are the GMs mechanical trigger to the moves which requires delivery of fiction, ending with “What do you do?”

  89. The simplest way I’ve heard it described is that a soft move sets the scene for a hard move. With a soft move you give the PCs a little warning, let them see the danger coming. A hard move comes out of nowhere.

    If you’re climbing a sheer rock face and the GM gets a soft move, maybe you see your rope fraying and have time to make a desperate move, or you notice the blood kestrels just as they notice you.

    On a hard move, the rope breaks and you’re falling, what do you do? A blood kestrel screeches and slashes at your face, take ad6 damage and defy danger with str or con to hold right to the rope.

    You can react to a soft move, but if you ignore it, it turns into a hard move. A hard move just hits you.

  90. The simplest way I’ve heard it described is that a soft move sets the scene for a hard move. With a soft move you give the PCs a little warning, let them see the danger coming. A hard move comes out of nowhere.

    If you’re climbing a sheer rock face and the GM gets a soft move, maybe you see your rope fraying and have time to make a desperate move, or you notice the blood kestrels just as they notice you.

    On a hard move, the rope breaks and you’re falling, what do you do? A blood kestrel screeches and slashes at your face, take ad6 damage and defy danger with str or con to hold right to the rope.

    You can react to a soft move, but if you ignore it, it turns into a hard move. A hard move just hits you.

  91. Todd Zircher Now that’s funny. But I like this analogy. Since the whole point of Chekhov’s gun is that if you see it in the first act it must be used in the third, then the moves are clear. Seeing the gun on the table is the soft move, and having someone use the gun to kill someone else is the hard.

  92. Todd Zircher Now that’s funny. But I like this analogy. Since the whole point of Chekhov’s gun is that if you see it in the first act it must be used in the third, then the moves are clear. Seeing the gun on the table is the soft move, and having someone use the gun to kill someone else is the hard.

  93. GM/MC Moves are how you show the world acting, or reacting to the PCs actions.

    A soft move is used to signal danger or set up a challenge or obstacle the players can choose to engage with or ignore.

    A Hard move is an inescapable calamity, often as a result of a players decision.

  94. GM/MC Moves are how you show the world acting, or reacting to the PCs actions.

    A soft move is used to signal danger or set up a challenge or obstacle the players can choose to engage with or ignore.

    A Hard move is an inescapable calamity, often as a result of a players decision.

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