The Gauntlet After Dark – “Classism” and our Patreon
You guys know I like to keep things positive around here since the Gauntlet is my refuge from an increasingly bizarre and disturbing world, but something has been eating me alive the last few days, and I have to get it off my chest.
In one of our other spaces, I was recently called “classist.” The charge was one of a number of wild accusations that were slung at me by the same person, and the basis of it is that we have a Patreon that puts paywalls on certain things, like Codex, access to our Slack, and priority RSVPs for the gaming calendar.
Setting aside the fact that every single Patreon dollar goes into someone’s pocket other than my own, the notion that the monetization structure I’ve landed on is “classist” is incredibly offensive from an artistic and creative standpoint. To make that statement is to say “Your podcasts have no artistic value. Your zine has no artistic value. The rather insane amount of time you spend organizing and maintaining your massive, public game calendar has no value.”
That person would never ask a game publisher to give them their book for free. They would never ask a convention organizer to let them into the Con for free. And they would certainly never object to a Kickstarter pledge goal that was out of reach to some people because of cost.
But apparently the Gauntlet is different. The thousands of man-hours we spend each year bringing entertainment, community and joy is unworthy of compensation.
I’m “classist” because I have the temerity to ask people who enjoy what we do to pitch in? I’m “classist” because I want to express my gratitude to the people who help us by giving them a few special privileges?
Give me a break.
Ok, that’s the end of my rant. Just needed to blow off some steam. Thanks (and sorry).
It’s so hard to not let haters get to you, especially when you put sooooo many hours into doing something and give half of it away for free (in your specific case, all of it). Just forget it. This person hasn’t thought through their comment very well. It’s blatantly illogical.
It’s so hard to not let haters get to you, especially when you put sooooo many hours into doing something and give half of it away for free (in your specific case, all of it). Just forget it. This person hasn’t thought through their comment very well. It’s blatantly illogical.
Ugh. Just… ugh.
Ugh. Just… ugh.
David LaFreniere I think most people have varying degrees of privilege, and there is nothing wrong with being aware of it, or asking others to be aware of it. To me, that’s part of being a careful, thoughtful citizen. But I take your broader point that some people are always spoiling for a fight. And, in the specific instance here, it’s a fight that is so casually dismissive of what we do, it’s tough to not let it get under your skin.
David LaFreniere I think most people have varying degrees of privilege, and there is nothing wrong with being aware of it, or asking others to be aware of it. To me, that’s part of being a careful, thoughtful citizen. But I take your broader point that some people are always spoiling for a fight. And, in the specific instance here, it’s a fight that is so casually dismissive of what we do, it’s tough to not let it get under your skin.
Echoing what I commented to Lowell earlier this evening: I greatly enjoy the Gauntlet Podcast and all the folks associated with. For a bunch of folks that are so passionate about RPGs, all of you are the most level headed and fair-minded folks, particularly in how you assess and critique other games, that I’ve had the opportunity to listen to. And for free to me the listener! I wish I had the wherewithal to contribute more. 🙂
Echoing what I commented to Lowell earlier this evening: I greatly enjoy the Gauntlet Podcast and all the folks associated with. For a bunch of folks that are so passionate about RPGs, all of you are the most level headed and fair-minded folks, particularly in how you assess and critique other games, that I’ve had the opportunity to listen to. And for free to me the listener! I wish I had the wherewithal to contribute more. 🙂
I’m still totally serious when I say you can pay in my games for XP and better rolls…
I think the Gauntlet is well worth supporting. that being said you can get an amazing amount of fun and value out of it without spending a dime. it makes little sense to begrudge someone a few perks when they support the product you enjoy for free.
I remember being a little worried about the limited number of early RSVP positions at first. But there are so many games that it doesn’t seem to be a big issue. Also there is no restriction on running games yourself. I generally have 2 or more free seats after the first week too (hint, hint, Monday DW 7-10PM central).
I’m still totally serious when I say you can pay in my games for XP and better rolls…
I think the Gauntlet is well worth supporting. that being said you can get an amazing amount of fun and value out of it without spending a dime. it makes little sense to begrudge someone a few perks when they support the product you enjoy for free.
I remember being a little worried about the limited number of early RSVP positions at first. But there are so many games that it doesn’t seem to be a big issue. Also there is no restriction on running games yourself. I generally have 2 or more free seats after the first week too (hint, hint, Monday DW 7-10PM central).
Also, I view the slack as more of a tool for organization or quick messaging. Most of what is shared there is also shared on the G+ (creators want lots of people to see their stuff). Its less of a private club and more of a proving ground.
Also, I view the slack as more of a tool for organization or quick messaging. Most of what is shared there is also shared on the G+ (creators want lots of people to see their stuff). Its less of a private club and more of a proving ground.
People who only contribute negative opinions are the destroyers of so many good things. Personally I’m happy to give some of my money to the Gauntlet without really using anything thats included in my Patreon pledge, just to show my support to a rare reliable contribution in this community!
People who only contribute negative opinions are the destroyers of so many good things. Personally I’m happy to give some of my money to the Gauntlet without really using anything thats included in my Patreon pledge, just to show my support to a rare reliable contribution in this community!
I think there are some great points there, as communities aren’t often thought of something people should be paid for creating and managing. Thank you for writing this.
I think there are some great points there, as communities aren’t often thought of something people should be paid for creating and managing. Thank you for writing this.
Disclaimer: Im a 7$ Patreon.
Does that make me unconfortable? Not at all. I said this often, I support a big family. This means I dont have a lot of free spending cash for hobbies. Ive still decided to support the Gauntlet and become a Patreon.
No one forced me to do this. Like no one forces us to buy a nice t-shirt or stop at McDonalds. Its a consumers choice. Its my choice.
We live in a capitalist system. Is this a good system? This is not the place to answer this. But its our reality. Jason and the Gauntlet crew are part of this system like all of us.
I think to Patreon pledge levels they offered where fair. I think what Patreons gets for their money is an amazing value for the price.
Finally, Ive listened to almost all the podcasts. These gave me hours of enjoyment. Did I have to pay for any of this? No. I’m happy the Patreon lets me repay in a small way all the hard work the Gauntlet puts in making these.
Be strong. Be proud. Dont worry. We have youre backs.
Maxime Lacoste, Keeper of the Silver Rods
Disclaimer: Im a 7$ Patreon.
Does that make me unconfortable? Not at all. I said this often, I support a big family. This means I dont have a lot of free spending cash for hobbies. Ive still decided to support the Gauntlet and become a Patreon.
No one forced me to do this. Like no one forces us to buy a nice t-shirt or stop at McDonalds. Its a consumers choice. Its my choice.
We live in a capitalist system. Is this a good system? This is not the place to answer this. But its our reality. Jason and the Gauntlet crew are part of this system like all of us.
I think to Patreon pledge levels they offered where fair. I think what Patreons gets for their money is an amazing value for the price.
Finally, Ive listened to almost all the podcasts. These gave me hours of enjoyment. Did I have to pay for any of this? No. I’m happy the Patreon lets me repay in a small way all the hard work the Gauntlet puts in making these.
Be strong. Be proud. Dont worry. We have youre backs.
Maxime Lacoste, Keeper of the Silver Rods
I feel like i need to give an alternative, personal perspective.
I’d only just starting running games with the Gauntlet when the Patreon arrived – like 1 game, maybe 2 is all. I was excited to give something back to the community that has been a large part of my recovery path since breakdown.
Specifically Gauntlet Hangouts and the broad, open approach to facilitating anyone to play games together. It took me ages to be brave enough to sign up to a Gauntlet Hangouts game, and begin to feel like a part of the community. I don’t see that having happened if there had been the $7 per month Patreon filter.
When the Patreon came in, the charge for signing up to games changed a lot for me, because I simply couldn’t run games giving priority to people who can afford to play.
So this was as much a disappointment about the fact that Gauntlet Hangouts’ values and mine didn’t quite align as i thought they did. As much as i couldn’t contribute in the way i hoped, and play more with everyone.
I’ve got no problem with asking for contributions for Codex, it seems impossible to produce without doing so! Same for all parts of Gauntlet – but i can’t run games for people who can afford to pay $7 per month. It’s simply not something i would like to be involved in. That’s not to say it shouldn’t happen if everyone else is fine with it – it’s not for me to judge.
So apart from running games I’ve tried to support in other ways – I contribute to the Patreon, and I was happy to make one of the Comic Strip APs, which was very enjoyable and I’m grateful for the opportunity. I haven’t mentioned all this before because i’m not brave or relevant, but I felt that someone should put forward a different point of view.
I feel like i need to give an alternative, personal perspective.
I’d only just starting running games with the Gauntlet when the Patreon arrived – like 1 game, maybe 2 is all. I was excited to give something back to the community that has been a large part of my recovery path since breakdown.
Specifically Gauntlet Hangouts and the broad, open approach to facilitating anyone to play games together. It took me ages to be brave enough to sign up to a Gauntlet Hangouts game, and begin to feel like a part of the community. I don’t see that having happened if there had been the $7 per month Patreon filter.
When the Patreon came in, the charge for signing up to games changed a lot for me, because I simply couldn’t run games giving priority to people who can afford to play.
So this was as much a disappointment about the fact that Gauntlet Hangouts’ values and mine didn’t quite align as i thought they did. As much as i couldn’t contribute in the way i hoped, and play more with everyone.
I’ve got no problem with asking for contributions for Codex, it seems impossible to produce without doing so! Same for all parts of Gauntlet – but i can’t run games for people who can afford to pay $7 per month. It’s simply not something i would like to be involved in. That’s not to say it shouldn’t happen if everyone else is fine with it – it’s not for me to judge.
So apart from running games I’ve tried to support in other ways – I contribute to the Patreon, and I was happy to make one of the Comic Strip APs, which was very enjoyable and I’m grateful for the opportunity. I haven’t mentioned all this before because i’m not brave or relevant, but I felt that someone should put forward a different point of view.
.
.
YG Mitchell I assume you do not (or would not) also run games at conventions? Because in that case, you would only be running games for people who can afford a $50 entrance fee, plus several hundred dollars for hotel and food.
I’m glad you brought up Codex as being worthy of dollars (it is) because there is a good analogy here with Gauntlet Hangouts. Between Gauntlet Houston and Gauntlet Hangouts, we were in the hole over $700 before we started the Patreon. Gauntlet Hangouts is no longer on Meetup, but in order to avoid any major disruptions in the future, I’m having a custom website and RSVP process put together, which has costs associated with it. We probably could have gone with a different, free system, but we might not have been successful.
And, again, this is to say nothing of man-hours. In the Gauntlet, we make everything look dead easy, but that doesn’t mean it is. We have 47 games on our calendar just for February, and those 47 games will make. I don’t know how much you know about organizing games, either online or in meatspace, but that is really hard. The only other space where you can get that kind of consistency is…a convention.
So, I guess just don’t understand why it’s ok to expect people to pay money for things like podcasts and Codex, but it’s immoral to expect them to pay for their gaming. That just doesn’t compute with me.
And setting aside any question of its immorality, it is only $3 per month, and even then it’s not a complete paywall. Not all the games fill up on Patreon. They’re only there for a week before they get opened up to the general community (for free).
YG Mitchell I assume you do not (or would not) also run games at conventions? Because in that case, you would only be running games for people who can afford a $50 entrance fee, plus several hundred dollars for hotel and food.
I’m glad you brought up Codex as being worthy of dollars (it is) because there is a good analogy here with Gauntlet Hangouts. Between Gauntlet Houston and Gauntlet Hangouts, we were in the hole over $700 before we started the Patreon. Gauntlet Hangouts is no longer on Meetup, but in order to avoid any major disruptions in the future, I’m having a custom website and RSVP process put together, which has costs associated with it. We probably could have gone with a different, free system, but we might not have been successful.
And, again, this is to say nothing of man-hours. In the Gauntlet, we make everything look dead easy, but that doesn’t mean it is. We have 47 games on our calendar just for February, and those 47 games will make. I don’t know how much you know about organizing games, either online or in meatspace, but that is really hard. The only other space where you can get that kind of consistency is…a convention.
So, I guess just don’t understand why it’s ok to expect people to pay money for things like podcasts and Codex, but it’s immoral to expect them to pay for their gaming. That just doesn’t compute with me.
And setting aside any question of its immorality, it is only $3 per month, and even then it’s not a complete paywall. Not all the games fill up on Patreon. They’re only there for a week before they get opened up to the general community (for free).
Quick note as I get back to work: In the 1960’s my mom’s family moved from Houston to Bay City, TX. My grandfather, who was a Disciples of Christ Minister, told my mom and her brothers on the way to their school (and would tell them intermittently for years to come), “Don’t let the bastards get you down”. I have found it universally applicable advice 🙂 I can’t always manage to follow it, but it’s a good mantra/reminder. Don’t let the bastards get you down, Jason. Dialogue is good, and hearing different perspectives can help open windows, but at the end of the day all you can do is take the best care of this community as possible…which you always do. Warm Fuzzies from Houston <3
Quick note as I get back to work: In the 1960’s my mom’s family moved from Houston to Bay City, TX. My grandfather, who was a Disciples of Christ Minister, told my mom and her brothers on the way to their school (and would tell them intermittently for years to come), “Don’t let the bastards get you down”. I have found it universally applicable advice 🙂 I can’t always manage to follow it, but it’s a good mantra/reminder. Don’t let the bastards get you down, Jason. Dialogue is good, and hearing different perspectives can help open windows, but at the end of the day all you can do is take the best care of this community as possible…which you always do. Warm Fuzzies from Houston <3
Mikael Tysvær We certainly appreciate it. I think there are a number of people who feel the same way, which is to say they just want to be supportive, irrespective of Patreon perks.
Mikael Tysvær We certainly appreciate it. I think there are a number of people who feel the same way, which is to say they just want to be supportive, irrespective of Patreon perks.
Kristen D Aww, thanks
Kristen D Aww, thanks
The podcast and the G+ community has rekindled my interest in RPGs (after playing for 30 years now) and completely changed what games I play and how I play them. I pledge on the 2$ level not because I expect to get something back but to show my gratitude towards The Gauntlet.
However I think that the discussion culture around here is very poorly developed. People shy away from disagreement. There is something fundamentally wrong in a community where there is no room for dissenting opinions and people who disagree with you are called bastards.
“At the end of the day all you can do is take the best care of this community as possible but dialogue is good, and hearing different perspectives can help open windows” There: fixed it for you.
The podcast and the G+ community has rekindled my interest in RPGs (after playing for 30 years now) and completely changed what games I play and how I play them. I pledge on the 2$ level not because I expect to get something back but to show my gratitude towards The Gauntlet.
However I think that the discussion culture around here is very poorly developed. People shy away from disagreement. There is something fundamentally wrong in a community where there is no room for dissenting opinions and people who disagree with you are called bastards.
“At the end of the day all you can do is take the best care of this community as possible but dialogue is good, and hearing different perspectives can help open windows” There: fixed it for you.
Horst Wurst “Don’t let the bastards get you down” is a pretty widely-used and mild colloquialism in the States. The use of the word “bastard” in that context is not nearly so harsh as you may think. It’s the equivalent of saying “Keep your chin up.” So, I don’t think it’s quite fair to say that people we disagree with are called “bastards.” That’s a mischaracterization of what Kristen was saying above.
As for the general sentiment that disagreement is somehow forbidden around here…I disagree? Just because our G+ community isn’t as contentious as forums on Reddit or RPG.net doesn’t mean there is some kind of gag order in place. Certainly, we have a culture, but it’s a culture that chooses to discuss things in a civil manner, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that.
Horst Wurst “Don’t let the bastards get you down” is a pretty widely-used and mild colloquialism in the States. The use of the word “bastard” in that context is not nearly so harsh as you may think. It’s the equivalent of saying “Keep your chin up.” So, I don’t think it’s quite fair to say that people we disagree with are called “bastards.” That’s a mischaracterization of what Kristen was saying above.
As for the general sentiment that disagreement is somehow forbidden around here…I disagree? Just because our G+ community isn’t as contentious as forums on Reddit or RPG.net doesn’t mean there is some kind of gag order in place. Certainly, we have a culture, but it’s a culture that chooses to discuss things in a civil manner, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that.
Horst Wurst I don’t know you and you don’t know me, don’t presume to “fix” my words. I do find it ironic that you point out that the discussion here is poor because people can’t disagree and then you need to “fix” my statement so that it agrees with your position.
And yes, just as I doubt my minister grandfather was calling elementary school children bastards, I was not referring to gauntleteers as actual bastards…it’s an expression.
Horst Wurst I don’t know you and you don’t know me, don’t presume to “fix” my words. I do find it ironic that you point out that the discussion here is poor because people can’t disagree and then you need to “fix” my statement so that it agrees with your position.
And yes, just as I doubt my minister grandfather was calling elementary school children bastards, I was not referring to gauntleteers as actual bastards…it’s an expression.
Oh I don´t think that there is an explicit gag order and I certainly don´t want the G+ community to be as toxic as reddit. I just thought that the way Kristen D responded was inappropriate and symptomatic for an implicit discussion culture that regards disagreement as somehow wrong. If that comes from me not being familiar with common phrases I apologize.
Oh I don´t think that there is an explicit gag order and I certainly don´t want the G+ community to be as toxic as reddit. I just thought that the way Kristen D responded was inappropriate and symptomatic for an implicit discussion culture that regards disagreement as somehow wrong. If that comes from me not being familiar with common phrases I apologize.
Horst Wurst Yeah, I figured you just weren’t familiar with that expression. It’s REALLY mild. Actually, the use of the word “bastard” in American English usage is fairly mild. It’s one of the most benign, innocuous things you can call someone, even if you mean to offend them.
Horst Wurst Yeah, I figured you just weren’t familiar with that expression. It’s REALLY mild. Actually, the use of the word “bastard” in American English usage is fairly mild. It’s one of the most benign, innocuous things you can call someone, even if you mean to offend them.
In a given month, I expect that my 35$ pledge results in between 25$ and 50$ in additional sales of my game. Money well spent!
In a given month, I expect that my 35$ pledge results in between 25$ and 50$ in additional sales of my game. Money well spent!
Slade Stolar And those advertisements are forever (including on the website). Like my goddess and life coach RuPaul says “Someone new turns 18 every day!” It’s the same: someone new discovers DR every day.
Slade Stolar And those advertisements are forever (including on the website). Like my goddess and life coach RuPaul says “Someone new turns 18 every day!” It’s the same: someone new discovers DR every day.
Jason Cordova
Exactly right! (Plus I’m getting Codex, Slack, and early sign-up access which are both useful and entertaining)
Jason Cordova
Exactly right! (Plus I’m getting Codex, Slack, and early sign-up access which are both useful and entertaining)
My initial (somewhat flippant) answer overshadows the fact that I know how difficult it is to put a decent podcast together. I enjoyed DR and The Gauntlet for about a year, and felt just a tiny bit guilty for getting so much quality entertainment for free.
When I was a middle-school kid, I pirated mp3s. Once I could afford CDs, I did actually buy them.
If my dollars support the Gauntlet community, which gives me dozens of hours of entertainment per month, I’m a happy camper.
My initial (somewhat flippant) answer overshadows the fact that I know how difficult it is to put a decent podcast together. I enjoyed DR and The Gauntlet for about a year, and felt just a tiny bit guilty for getting so much quality entertainment for free.
When I was a middle-school kid, I pirated mp3s. Once I could afford CDs, I did actually buy them.
If my dollars support the Gauntlet community, which gives me dozens of hours of entertainment per month, I’m a happy camper.
On separate channels, someone expressed that they thought the $7 pledge level is like being able to jump ahead in the line at a theme park, but without other rides being available for people who don’t hold that privilege. I…get that. I think that is a legit argument and worth pondering. My response is we are doing our best to expand the number of games available for folks to play in. It is something I think about constantly. The trick, of course, is I don’t let just anyone put a game on our calendar. I prefer they play with us for awhile and demonstrate a certain level of commitment and competency. I want to expand the number of games on our calendar, but I also want to maintain a certain level of quality.
On separate channels, someone expressed that they thought the $7 pledge level is like being able to jump ahead in the line at a theme park, but without other rides being available for people who don’t hold that privilege. I…get that. I think that is a legit argument and worth pondering. My response is we are doing our best to expand the number of games available for folks to play in. It is something I think about constantly. The trick, of course, is I don’t let just anyone put a game on our calendar. I prefer they play with us for awhile and demonstrate a certain level of commitment and competency. I want to expand the number of games on our calendar, but I also want to maintain a certain level of quality.
Artists and organizers should never be pressured to work for free. There is a lot of free access in the Gauntlet, but goodness people, things cost money in this society we currently live in! And I am one of the most vehemently anti capitalism people out there… If you come up with an alternate way of getting hosting and art and writing and organizing that is fair for those actually doing the work, I am all ears and enthusiastic… But it is their right to choose their means of compensation in the end, and they will probably want money. The Gauntlet is a great deal regardless of it all.
To be fair, there is also a concerted effort lately on the slack group to bring things back to G+. People are conscious of isolating discussions and shares and culture. A lot of people are taking the philosophy that slack is for chat, and G+ is for discussion.
Artists and organizers should never be pressured to work for free. There is a lot of free access in the Gauntlet, but goodness people, things cost money in this society we currently live in! And I am one of the most vehemently anti capitalism people out there… If you come up with an alternate way of getting hosting and art and writing and organizing that is fair for those actually doing the work, I am all ears and enthusiastic… But it is their right to choose their means of compensation in the end, and they will probably want money. The Gauntlet is a great deal regardless of it all.
To be fair, there is also a concerted effort lately on the slack group to bring things back to G+. People are conscious of isolating discussions and shares and culture. A lot of people are taking the philosophy that slack is for chat, and G+ is for discussion.
Phillip Wessels I’m glad you brought that up about the Slack vs. G+. It’s a really important point. The Slack kind of came out of nowhere in terms of how much people use it and enjoy it vis a vis The Gauntlet. I, personally, had no idea it would be such a vital thing. But you’re right: even on the Slack, people are starting to be more conscious of how it should be used, which is as a hangout spot.
Phillip Wessels I’m glad you brought that up about the Slack vs. G+. It’s a really important point. The Slack kind of came out of nowhere in terms of how much people use it and enjoy it vis a vis The Gauntlet. I, personally, had no idea it would be such a vital thing. But you’re right: even on the Slack, people are starting to be more conscious of how it should be used, which is as a hangout spot.
What I hope everyone takes away from this thread is that I care really deeply about this stuff. I have to find a balance between maximum participation and continued, sustainable growth. What we’re doing in the Gauntlet, in totatlity, is unprecedented in the hobby. There is nothing like what we do, just lots of imperfect analogies. But trust that I am doing my best to figure it out. What I don’t like is to be told is that the choices I’ve made are immoral.
What I hope everyone takes away from this thread is that I care really deeply about this stuff. I have to find a balance between maximum participation and continued, sustainable growth. What we’re doing in the Gauntlet, in totatlity, is unprecedented in the hobby. There is nothing like what we do, just lots of imperfect analogies. But trust that I am doing my best to figure it out. What I don’t like is to be told is that the choices I’ve made are immoral.
For me, that’s the important point in why I “believe” in this community: organisers and members make every effort to show and proof their good intentions.
And so I can assume good intentions in every action even if they don’t seem completely sound to me. (Like: the use of the word bastard or hater for adverse opinions which as a non native speaker I might get wrongly).
Hearing often how many cool discussion have been going on in a separate forum (Slack) which has a paywall is for example something which irritated me. Because I can afford and I absolutely think it’s worth I would even pledge 7$ to be an insider but the club is closed for new members at the moment (but I’m on the waiting list 🙂 ). But I’m more than happy to hear that on Slack you are considering how to get discussions back on a publicly available forum and more importantly that people are so conscious about the effect.
For me, that’s the important point in why I “believe” in this community: organisers and members make every effort to show and proof their good intentions.
And so I can assume good intentions in every action even if they don’t seem completely sound to me. (Like: the use of the word bastard or hater for adverse opinions which as a non native speaker I might get wrongly).
Hearing often how many cool discussion have been going on in a separate forum (Slack) which has a paywall is for example something which irritated me. Because I can afford and I absolutely think it’s worth I would even pledge 7$ to be an insider but the club is closed for new members at the moment (but I’m on the waiting list 🙂 ). But I’m more than happy to hear that on Slack you are considering how to get discussions back on a publicly available forum and more importantly that people are so conscious about the effect.
Gerrit Reininghaus When I made the Slack a Patreon thing, I had no idea what the response would be like. It was a rare blind spot for me. I think about it a lot.
Gerrit Reininghaus When I made the Slack a Patreon thing, I had no idea what the response would be like. It was a rare blind spot for me. I think about it a lot.
Caveated with: I fucking love the Gauntlet and I’m well aware where the Patreon money goes because I get some of it to do the layout for Codex. I absolutely think The Gauntlet is worth paying for.
I don’t think the $7 level is classist. I’m flat broke but I could find $7 if I thought I’d get the use out of it, which between timezones and my own schedule, I wouldn’t.
But I do think a potential issue is that because of the $7 level (not the cost of it, just that it’s there) means the games will almost always go to the same people. So what you’re missing is new people, new ideas, and so on. The culture could become homogenised, which is at odds with the intent of the community.
I think the Slack channel might have a similar issue, because the hardcore of (I’m guessing) around than 100 dedicated Gauntlet posters and commenter have mostly moved onto there instead of the public G+ Community. I love the Slack, but someone just coming across the Gauntlet wouldn’t know it’s there or how good it is. Having that sort of and level of conversation in a more public space could encourage more growth and diversity in the group.
Caveated with: I fucking love the Gauntlet and I’m well aware where the Patreon money goes because I get some of it to do the layout for Codex. I absolutely think The Gauntlet is worth paying for.
I don’t think the $7 level is classist. I’m flat broke but I could find $7 if I thought I’d get the use out of it, which between timezones and my own schedule, I wouldn’t.
But I do think a potential issue is that because of the $7 level (not the cost of it, just that it’s there) means the games will almost always go to the same people. So what you’re missing is new people, new ideas, and so on. The culture could become homogenised, which is at odds with the intent of the community.
I think the Slack channel might have a similar issue, because the hardcore of (I’m guessing) around than 100 dedicated Gauntlet posters and commenter have mostly moved onto there instead of the public G+ Community. I love the Slack, but someone just coming across the Gauntlet wouldn’t know it’s there or how good it is. Having that sort of and level of conversation in a more public space could encourage more growth and diversity in the group.
(Just saw that the Slack thing also got raised while I was typing)
(Just saw that the Slack thing also got raised while I was typing)
Gerrit Reininghaus Also, incidentally, there is a $7 spot available on the Patreon.
Gerrit Reininghaus Also, incidentally, there is a $7 spot available on the Patreon.
Oli Jeffery I am definitely receptive to the homgenisation argument vis a vis Gauntlet Hangouts. Somewhat on the flip side of that: a number of those regular players are thinking about running games of their own. In effect, it has become something of a farm team for new GMs and new games, which should expand the overall number of slots available to play in. In that way, our current configuration is something of an incubator…the first steps to something bigger.
Oli Jeffery I am definitely receptive to the homgenisation argument vis a vis Gauntlet Hangouts. Somewhat on the flip side of that: a number of those regular players are thinking about running games of their own. In effect, it has become something of a farm team for new GMs and new games, which should expand the overall number of slots available to play in. In that way, our current configuration is something of an incubator…the first steps to something bigger.
To emphasize my comment above, the $7 spots being capped at 50 is only through 2017. I don’t know what 2018 looks like, but I imagine by the time we get there, the 2017 pioneers (so to speak) will have laid a really terrific foundation for the gaming to come.
To emphasize my comment above, the $7 spots being capped at 50 is only through 2017. I don’t know what 2018 looks like, but I imagine by the time we get there, the 2017 pioneers (so to speak) will have laid a really terrific foundation for the gaming to come.
Jason Cordova the spot: cool, I will raise my pledge latest tonight (CST).
Jason Cordova the spot: cool, I will raise my pledge latest tonight (CST).
That’s great. I was going to suggest something like that
That’s great. I was going to suggest something like that
Daniel Fowler Great, now I need to write a Freemium Game. Thanks a lot.
Daniel Fowler Great, now I need to write a Freemium Game. Thanks a lot.
Brandon Leon-Gambetta I sometimes wonder if Fowler is kidding about that, haha.
Brandon Leon-Gambetta I sometimes wonder if Fowler is kidding about that, haha.
I’m not
I’m not
If you want that +1 bad enough to send me a $ then I will happily give it to you. I’ll put it to good use
If you want that +1 bad enough to send me a $ then I will happily give it to you. I’ll put it to good use
The image I used for this post was actually made years ago (by Fowler) as a joke about the idea that the Gauntlet would ever start asking for money. At the time, the thought just seemed so ludicrous. “We’re having so much fun! Why mess it up by bringing money into the equation?” And you better believe the Patreon was the single hardest series of decisions I’ve made about the Gauntlet. Anyone who was around at that time knows I fretted about it constantly. It was an agonizing decision to make. And I still feel so sheepish about it, I find ways to funnel the Patreon dollars into the hands of other people. The thought of keeping any of it for myself is really tough. Which, again, is why I find the accusations of classism and immorality so jarring.
The image I used for this post was actually made years ago (by Fowler) as a joke about the idea that the Gauntlet would ever start asking for money. At the time, the thought just seemed so ludicrous. “We’re having so much fun! Why mess it up by bringing money into the equation?” And you better believe the Patreon was the single hardest series of decisions I’ve made about the Gauntlet. Anyone who was around at that time knows I fretted about it constantly. It was an agonizing decision to make. And I still feel so sheepish about it, I find ways to funnel the Patreon dollars into the hands of other people. The thought of keeping any of it for myself is really tough. Which, again, is why I find the accusations of classism and immorality so jarring.
Jason Cordova hats off always to you for trying to figure out this mythic beast that is the gauntlet. We support you oh fearless leader!
Jason Cordova hats off always to you for trying to figure out this mythic beast that is the gauntlet. We support you oh fearless leader!
Running games and putting out podcasts takes time and money. It is ridiculous to call you “classist” for attempting to get revenue from doing such, as you are just putting the money back in the process. But, the way you were throwing around “hick” in Gauntlet #88 might sound a wee bit classist… a wee bit…. (maybe it was Discern Realities… I listened to them back to back this weekend…eek)
Running games and putting out podcasts takes time and money. It is ridiculous to call you “classist” for attempting to get revenue from doing such, as you are just putting the money back in the process. But, the way you were throwing around “hick” in Gauntlet #88 might sound a wee bit classist… a wee bit…. (maybe it was Discern Realities… I listened to them back to back this weekend…eek)
Steven Warble Haha, I have no memory of that, which I suppose is part of the problem. I’ll concede that point. 🙂
Steven Warble Haha, I have no memory of that, which I suppose is part of the problem. I’ll concede that point. 🙂
Steven Warble Unless you mean DR 39? I do remember that.
Steven Warble Unless you mean DR 39? I do remember that.
Bookmarking to come back and read later. Was having this discussion recently about hobbies being luxury items and the fact that some people think they have a right to such luxury items.
Bookmarking to come back and read later. Was having this discussion recently about hobbies being luxury items and the fact that some people think they have a right to such luxury items.
I’m so glad that this topic came up, as I’ve considered the Gauntlet’s Patreon benefits before. Full Disclosure: I’ve organized games, paid for conventions, and I’m a $7 Patreon supporter.
My first experience with this issue was years ago when I had a player at my table that had to choose between buying the latest RPG books to use in our game or feeding his family. I didn’t like seeing this situation, and we handled it as best we could to keep him playing at the tables we organized. However, I’ve thought about it a lot over the years.
The website hosting, codex development and art, bandwidth charges for podcast downloads, etc. all costs money. In addition, many of the gauntlet members are donating the amount of time that equates to a second job–just to make the community (and our hobby) a better place.
It can quickly become disheartening to continue that level effort when complaints come in.
Please, anyone who is discouraged by this, remember that there are many, many who thank you for the effort involved, and who understand the amount of work that you have put into this community.
I’m not a fan of participating in an “elitist” group, but everything that I’ve seen indicates that the Gauntlet doesn’t exclude people. This community seems to embrace nearly everyone, and I hope we can look for a solution that helps everyone.
Once the Gauntlet is on a stable financial foundation, would it be possible to mirror Avery Mcdaldno’s “Good Deed” option?
(i.e. Buried Without Ceremony – a publisher of pen-and-paper roleplaying games – lets you have their products for free, if you can provide proof that you have done something on their list of good deeds (volunteering an hour of your time for a charity, baking muffins for a neighbour, giving a ride to a hitchhiker, donating clothes etc.).)
I understand that this would have additional overhead for the Gauntlet owners who would have to review the pictures of people who have volunteered at soup kitchens or selfies of people who took a meal to a neighbor, but I hope it would be it’s own reward as well.
I’m so glad that this topic came up, as I’ve considered the Gauntlet’s Patreon benefits before. Full Disclosure: I’ve organized games, paid for conventions, and I’m a $7 Patreon supporter.
My first experience with this issue was years ago when I had a player at my table that had to choose between buying the latest RPG books to use in our game or feeding his family. I didn’t like seeing this situation, and we handled it as best we could to keep him playing at the tables we organized. However, I’ve thought about it a lot over the years.
The website hosting, codex development and art, bandwidth charges for podcast downloads, etc. all costs money. In addition, many of the gauntlet members are donating the amount of time that equates to a second job–just to make the community (and our hobby) a better place.
It can quickly become disheartening to continue that level effort when complaints come in.
Please, anyone who is discouraged by this, remember that there are many, many who thank you for the effort involved, and who understand the amount of work that you have put into this community.
I’m not a fan of participating in an “elitist” group, but everything that I’ve seen indicates that the Gauntlet doesn’t exclude people. This community seems to embrace nearly everyone, and I hope we can look for a solution that helps everyone.
Once the Gauntlet is on a stable financial foundation, would it be possible to mirror Avery Mcdaldno’s “Good Deed” option?
(i.e. Buried Without Ceremony – a publisher of pen-and-paper roleplaying games – lets you have their products for free, if you can provide proof that you have done something on their list of good deeds (volunteering an hour of your time for a charity, baking muffins for a neighbour, giving a ride to a hitchhiker, donating clothes etc.).)
I understand that this would have additional overhead for the Gauntlet owners who would have to review the pictures of people who have volunteered at soup kitchens or selfies of people who took a meal to a neighbor, but I hope it would be it’s own reward as well.
steven watkins Thanks for that. It’s an interesting idea, for sure.
The biggest thing I’m hearing today is “perception” and “the need to clearly communicate our goals.” Despite my misgivings about posting this, it has led to a number of interesting discussions (most of them private, some public).
steven watkins Thanks for that. It’s an interesting idea, for sure.
The biggest thing I’m hearing today is “perception” and “the need to clearly communicate our goals.” Despite my misgivings about posting this, it has led to a number of interesting discussions (most of them private, some public).
In an ideal world, money shouldn’t be a barrier to participating in the great content you all put out. In the actual world, capitalism is a thing, and all of the shit you do is work, and you deserve to get paid for it. End of story.
Calling content creators classist for putting their work behind a paywall just goes to show how many people don’t value their work at all.
In an ideal world, money shouldn’t be a barrier to participating in the great content you all put out. In the actual world, capitalism is a thing, and all of the shit you do is work, and you deserve to get paid for it. End of story.
Calling content creators classist for putting their work behind a paywall just goes to show how many people don’t value their work at all.
I’m going to close up comments here. Thanks everyone for being constructive and not getting into any fights. This thread is a testament to the basic goodness of our community, and I’m always grateful for that. This has been a very illuminating day. I’m happy about the feedback (public and private) that I’ve gotten. Cheers!
I’m going to close up comments here. Thanks everyone for being constructive and not getting into any fights. This thread is a testament to the basic goodness of our community, and I’m always grateful for that. This has been a very illuminating day. I’m happy about the feedback (public and private) that I’ve gotten. Cheers!