I need some advice on how to cope with a power gamer in Dungeon World. I’ve played OSR games (particularly C&C) for years, but started a DW campaign a few weeks ago. Based on asking questions and using the answers, the campaign is initially centered around the party trying to recover a magic sword from a dragon. Sounded good to me. I suggested they can probably do some research and learn of a way to either defeat the dragon or snatch the sword. One of the players (playing a fighter, so we’ll call him Fighter) declared they should immediately go to the dragon’s lair. That sounded suicidal to me, but okay. They’ll figure it out during play. We’ve spent two sessions as the party hacked its way through the goblins living in the mountain below the dragon’s lair. Fighter has made it to level 4 after 2 sessions. Fighter is getting cockier and cockier. He insists he will be able to kill the dragon by the time the party gets to it. He appears to be relying on picking the right combination of advanced moves to guarantee a party victory.
Fighter used multiclass dabbler to get the paladin advanced move Bloody Aegis. He has mentioned the cleric picking up the Sever spell down the road so the dragon’s wing(s) can be removed and take away its ability to fly. I think he intends to take Evil Eye to basically paralyze the dragon while the rest of the party kicks its ass. I’ll be surprised if Through Death’s Eyes isn’t used, as well.
On the one hand, I’m supposed to be a fan of the players and smart play should be rewarded. On the other hand, there is something offensive as a GM to see a player smugly gaming the system to guarantee the supposedly toughest monster in the book can be easily defeated.
The question is how should I run the encounter with the dragon when the time comes. Should Through Death’s Eye be able to guarantee the dragon is toast if the player rolls successfully? It’s a high end advanced move that should feel powerful when a player uses it. But should it threaten autokill of every BBEG the party comes across (obviously, assuming a successful move roll)?
Some obvious ideas spring to mind. Through Death’s Eyes can still leave a lot of dead PCs on the field of battle, although how to get to the end of the fight narratively when the death of a BBEG such as a dragon is a little unclear. And while Fighter may be able to freeze the dragon with Evil Eye, that doesn’t mean the remaining PCs have the ability to actually harm it. One option with Evil Eye might be to have Fighter make a defy danger roll to even stare down the dragon before he can make the Evil Eye move.
I guess my real concern is Fighter is going to come up with a combination of moves and spells that he believes gives him control of the encounter. I don’t want to give up that kind of control. I have no problem with the PCs coming out victorious. I do have a problem with Fighter’s approach. How do I balance playing to see what happens, portraying a fantastic world, being a fan of the characters, and thinking dangerous when a player is trying to “beat” the game? I’m worried Fighter is going to execute his master plan, I’m going to fairly conclude it might not work for narrative reasons, and Fighter is going to get pissed because he feels I have cheated him out of the inevitable reward for his ingenuity. I’m also a little afraid that I will cling to so much narrative control that I do cheat the players out of a victory their smart play should ensure. I’m really bristling at the notion that a party of 1st level PCs thinks it can handle any BBEG through the right power gaming.
Any advice would be appreciated. I know this is all vague and a little rambling, but that is partly because I don’t know what all Fighter has in mind.
Building on Ole Peder Giæver answers. The dragon is a great guardian. Its presence near the gate of the ages (which you can start giving hints about as they climb the gauntlet.
“The ancestral defenses here seems to have been built to stop an army from coming out, not coming in. The goblins have established in the easily defensible positions.” Etc. and clearer as they move up.
Mutate the front, and build on the players answers.
They want/need the sword, but at what cost? By killing the Dragon will they slay the door’s guardian? Will it open the door to the demon army of Sloth?
I would also show the dragon destroying a nearby village and its army post, this would offer a balance between cost (dragon eating people) and consequence (doom to the world). And after that its up to the players to decide. They might kill the dragon and retrieve the sword to fight the demon armies, or make sure the Queens army does not try to kill the dragon.
Have fun with it. Build a story.
Building on Ole Peder Giæver answers. The dragon is a great guardian. Its presence near the gate of the ages (which you can start giving hints about as they climb the gauntlet.
“The ancestral defenses here seems to have been built to stop an army from coming out, not coming in. The goblins have established in the easily defensible positions.” Etc. and clearer as they move up.
Mutate the front, and build on the players answers.
They want/need the sword, but at what cost? By killing the Dragon will they slay the door’s guardian? Will it open the door to the demon army of Sloth?
I would also show the dragon destroying a nearby village and its army post, this would offer a balance between cost (dragon eating people) and consequence (doom to the world). And after that its up to the players to decide. They might kill the dragon and retrieve the sword to fight the demon armies, or make sure the Queens army does not try to kill the dragon.
Have fun with it. Build a story.
Agreed with Ole Peder Giæver, as per usual. They kill the dragon. They get the sword. Great!
Now everyone dies. Not them, they can probably deal with a bunch of demons. The townspeople. Everyone they live.
Thanks offscreen, too.
Agreed with Ole Peder Giæver, as per usual. They kill the dragon. They get the sword. Great!
Now everyone dies. Not them, they can probably deal with a bunch of demons. The townspeople. Everyone they live.
Thanks offscreen, too.
Have you read the 16-hit point dragon? That will probably help you with some ideas. Even if the fighter does really well, a fail by any member of the party can turn what looked like an easy encounter into a messy ‘run-for-your-life’. The important thing is, of course, to make it interesting and fun. Good luck!
reddit.com – [Dungeon World] “Scariest monster ever” (16 HP) • /r/gametales
Have you read the 16-hit point dragon? That will probably help you with some ideas. Even if the fighter does really well, a fail by any member of the party can turn what looked like an easy encounter into a messy ‘run-for-your-life’. The important thing is, of course, to make it interesting and fun. Good luck!
reddit.com – [Dungeon World] “Scariest monster ever” (16 HP) • /r/gametales
Eh, give him a challenge he can’t fight. The big bad dragon is actually chained down crying and asking for death. Offers the sword for free as long as they can end his misery.
Eh, give him a challenge he can’t fight. The big bad dragon is actually chained down crying and asking for death. Offers the sword for free as long as they can end his misery.
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I have read the 16 HP Dragon article. It was frustratingly vague on how the party damaged the dragon.
I have read the 16 HP Dragon article. It was frustratingly vague on how the party damaged the dragon.
Derek Jones the premise is basically that you use story to prevent damage. “You can see it’s scales, and they’re as thick as your forearm. No way in hell your sword is going to penetrate them. You’ll have to find some sort of weakness.”
Derek Jones the premise is basically that you use story to prevent damage. “You can see it’s scales, and they’re as thick as your forearm. No way in hell your sword is going to penetrate them. You’ll have to find some sort of weakness.”
Next hard move, I’d just have the dragon surprise attack them before Fighter has a chance to pull it all together. Not necessarily to kill them unless they really wanna to go toe tonite but to make the Dragon dang near invincible. Nothing wrong with them eventually beating it.
Next hard move, I’d just have the dragon surprise attack them before Fighter has a chance to pull it all together. Not necessarily to kill them unless they really wanna to go toe tonite but to make the Dragon dang near invincible. Nothing wrong with them eventually beating it.
All good responses. I might also mention to the players that some of those moves and abilities might not work at all on the Dragon. Otherwise, you might have some PO’d players.
All good responses. I might also mention to the players that some of those moves and abilities might not work at all on the Dragon. Otherwise, you might have some PO’d players.
I would think it would be more complicated than, “I make eye contact with the dragon”. He would need to get fictional positioning to be able to even look the dragon in the eye.
The air in the lair could be extremely dry or filled with smoke that irritates his eyes to where he has to DD just to keep from blinking and freeing the dragon who will know the fighter was the one keeping him from moving.
A minion of the dragon could escape the party and warn the dragon of any abilities the group used that could be troublesome.
The dragon could have minions in its lair that could soak some of the abilities they can only use at the start of combat, then come into fight midway through.
Also, you could drop some sort of information before they get there suggesting the dragon is immune to magic or highly resistant to it in order to keep the Cleric from using Sever, though a wingless dragon is still more dangerous than most monsters.
You can also go the classic route of making the fighter roll to combat the dragon’s natural aura of fear it emits. Most fighters don’t put much into Wisdom, so a DD WIS roll could send the fight south quick.
One more and I’ll stop, environmental hazards can also be used. If a big pillar gets damaged at the start, you can use it later if someone else fails a roll and have it fall at the fighter, who would then have to break off the Evil Eye to escape. And Evil Eye specifically triggers “When you enter combat”, so he couldn’t continue using it. And as far as Bloody Aegis goes, it triggers when you take damage. If something would kill them outright, it doesn’t trigger (like falling into a bottomless chasm, having a dragon’s lair collapse on them, or being suffocated by the oxygen being burned up by a dragon’s fire breath in a tight space).
I would think it would be more complicated than, “I make eye contact with the dragon”. He would need to get fictional positioning to be able to even look the dragon in the eye.
The air in the lair could be extremely dry or filled with smoke that irritates his eyes to where he has to DD just to keep from blinking and freeing the dragon who will know the fighter was the one keeping him from moving.
A minion of the dragon could escape the party and warn the dragon of any abilities the group used that could be troublesome.
The dragon could have minions in its lair that could soak some of the abilities they can only use at the start of combat, then come into fight midway through.
Also, you could drop some sort of information before they get there suggesting the dragon is immune to magic or highly resistant to it in order to keep the Cleric from using Sever, though a wingless dragon is still more dangerous than most monsters.
You can also go the classic route of making the fighter roll to combat the dragon’s natural aura of fear it emits. Most fighters don’t put much into Wisdom, so a DD WIS roll could send the fight south quick.
One more and I’ll stop, environmental hazards can also be used. If a big pillar gets damaged at the start, you can use it later if someone else fails a roll and have it fall at the fighter, who would then have to break off the Evil Eye to escape. And Evil Eye specifically triggers “When you enter combat”, so he couldn’t continue using it. And as far as Bloody Aegis goes, it triggers when you take damage. If something would kill them outright, it doesn’t trigger (like falling into a bottomless chasm, having a dragon’s lair collapse on them, or being suffocated by the oxygen being burned up by a dragon’s fire breath in a tight space).
Two words: blind dragon… dragon name lost his sight in an ancient battle and now relies on his powerful magic and sonic abilities to hunt and protect himself… maybe what the villagers call a dragon is an ancient basilisk and staring him down is a terrible idea. It’s probably not a great idea to give up to much info for free at the start of the adventure but if the group does the research then they deserve the right to come up with a plan. And while you shouldn’t lie to them, it’s possible that they do not have the full story or have been misled. Either way, no plan survives contact with the enemy. Dragons can be smart and magical. Maybe he knows or learns of the plan. Maybe he shows up before the party is ready. Maybe he has a plan and/or a hostage.
Two words: blind dragon… dragon name lost his sight in an ancient battle and now relies on his powerful magic and sonic abilities to hunt and protect himself… maybe what the villagers call a dragon is an ancient basilisk and staring him down is a terrible idea. It’s probably not a great idea to give up to much info for free at the start of the adventure but if the group does the research then they deserve the right to come up with a plan. And while you shouldn’t lie to them, it’s possible that they do not have the full story or have been misled. Either way, no plan survives contact with the enemy. Dragons can be smart and magical. Maybe he knows or learns of the plan. Maybe he shows up before the party is ready. Maybe he has a plan and/or a hostage.
Be honest to your prep. Don’t make specific changes to the dragon based on what the players are doing. It’ll come off as petty or cheap. If they do a good enough job at prepping for dragon combat and make the right rolls let them beat the dragon.
Be honest to your prep. Don’t make specific changes to the dragon based on what the players are doing. It’ll come off as petty or cheap. If they do a good enough job at prepping for dragon combat and make the right rolls let them beat the dragon.
Oh, the fighter wants to stare into the eyes of an ancient dragon?
Here’s a custom move for such a thing:
When you gaze into the abyss, roll +Wis. On a 10+, choose 3. On a 7-9, just one. On a 6-, choose 1 but the GM will do something terrible:
— You do not go permanently insane.
— You do not fall to your knees in awe.
— You do not weep for your lost hubris.
— You do not beg forgiveness for your trespass.
Set this up by letting it be known that those who stare into the dragon’s eyes are forever changed, that sort of thing. It is a ridiculously hard move.
Oh, the fighter wants to stare into the eyes of an ancient dragon?
Here’s a custom move for such a thing:
When you gaze into the abyss, roll +Wis. On a 10+, choose 3. On a 7-9, just one. On a 6-, choose 1 but the GM will do something terrible:
— You do not go permanently insane.
— You do not fall to your knees in awe.
— You do not weep for your lost hubris.
— You do not beg forgiveness for your trespass.
Set this up by letting it be known that those who stare into the dragon’s eyes are forever changed, that sort of thing. It is a ridiculously hard move.
Seriously, Koebel just did a video about this. There is no Principle that says “Undermine their plans.” Right now the Principles of “Think dangerous” and “Be a fan of the player characters” are at conflict. However, it isn’t due to a failure of the game it’s due to your failure to “Think dangerous” enough. Don’t punish your players for your failure. They slay the dragon and you think more dangerously in the future.
Seriously, Koebel just did a video about this. There is no Principle that says “Undermine their plans.” Right now the Principles of “Think dangerous” and “Be a fan of the player characters” are at conflict. However, it isn’t due to a failure of the game it’s due to your failure to “Think dangerous” enough. Don’t punish your players for your failure. They slay the dragon and you think more dangerously in the future.
Here’s an old discussion from the Tavern about how to deal with “big bads”. I think a lot of the advice would be relevant to a dragon.
https://plus.google.com/101282524805480823686/posts/2UNZwaCUkW7
Here’s an old discussion from the Tavern about how to deal with “big bads”. I think a lot of the advice would be relevant to a dragon.
https://plus.google.com/101282524805480823686/posts/2UNZwaCUkW7
Ancient dragons are smart. You think your the first one’s to think of that strategy? Ha! I’m already two steps ahead – see those remains over here? The last guy who tried that.
Ancient dragons are smart. You think your the first one’s to think of that strategy? Ha! I’m already two steps ahead – see those remains over here? The last guy who tried that.
maybe my examples were bad. you definitely do not want to change the fiction just to cause your players to fail. “my bad guy is immune to your abilities because he is awesome.
you do want them to have an adventure. They aren’t solving your dragon puzzle. they are walking into a bad situation 100% confident in a plan based on what they know and assume. In the movies the hero’s plan rarely comes off without a hitch and its often because they did not know as much as they thought they did. you are all set to take down the shields when the emperor reveals that his battle station is fully operational and it was a trap the whole time.
If they did good research and have a good plan then it deserves a shot at success… but its not a sure thing. everything should not go as planed and they will need to adapt. even with good die rolls the boss fight should not be easy.
you have a mountain full of goblins to slow them down and give the boss time to prepare. maybe the cleric and fighter get split up. Maybe only the dragon knows where the sword is and can’t tell them if he is dead. Maybe a handful of goblin commandos poor into the room as the party enacts their plan. Maybe someone they have met before is working with the dragon and reveals his treachery at the worst moment.
maybe my examples were bad. you definitely do not want to change the fiction just to cause your players to fail. “my bad guy is immune to your abilities because he is awesome.
you do want them to have an adventure. They aren’t solving your dragon puzzle. they are walking into a bad situation 100% confident in a plan based on what they know and assume. In the movies the hero’s plan rarely comes off without a hitch and its often because they did not know as much as they thought they did. you are all set to take down the shields when the emperor reveals that his battle station is fully operational and it was a trap the whole time.
If they did good research and have a good plan then it deserves a shot at success… but its not a sure thing. everything should not go as planed and they will need to adapt. even with good die rolls the boss fight should not be easy.
you have a mountain full of goblins to slow them down and give the boss time to prepare. maybe the cleric and fighter get split up. Maybe only the dragon knows where the sword is and can’t tell them if he is dead. Maybe a handful of goblin commandos poor into the room as the party enacts their plan. Maybe someone they have met before is working with the dragon and reveals his treachery at the worst moment.
from a purely mechanical point of view I would point out that bloody aegis does not prevent a character from losing his weapon, an arm, or consciousness (as i read it). given a bad enough situation you can take him straight to last breath. I would also require some rational connection between the situation and the condition. If the player just lays down and lets the dragon stomp on him then he goes to last breath. it doesn’t make sense for him to check the sick box and be fine. It would be like the druid using the shed move to avoid damage from a 10 story fall, drowning or being crushed flat.
The other moves you mentioned use charisma and wisdom are his stats good enough in those areas as well as the traditional fighter stats?
from a purely mechanical point of view I would point out that bloody aegis does not prevent a character from losing his weapon, an arm, or consciousness (as i read it). given a bad enough situation you can take him straight to last breath. I would also require some rational connection between the situation and the condition. If the player just lays down and lets the dragon stomp on him then he goes to last breath. it doesn’t make sense for him to check the sick box and be fine. It would be like the druid using the shed move to avoid damage from a 10 story fall, drowning or being crushed flat.
The other moves you mentioned use charisma and wisdom are his stats good enough in those areas as well as the traditional fighter stats?
Are your players enjoying it? If so then it doesn’t sound like,a problem. Clever combinations and strategy is part of the game (and the biggest part for some play styles). If the power gamer is stealing spotlight take it away- give them challenges that require patience, stealth, magic, or book learning- show them the weakness of their class.
Are your players enjoying it? If so then it doesn’t sound like,a problem. Clever combinations and strategy is part of the game (and the biggest part for some play styles). If the power gamer is stealing spotlight take it away- give them challenges that require patience, stealth, magic, or book learning- show them the weakness of their class.
While being a fan of the characters is one thing, encouraging poor play is another. If their lack of planning didn’t give them insight on how to overcome some key aspect of the dragon situation (immunity to all damage but will fall in romantic love with anyone that offers tulips, or whatever), don’t be afraid to let the party go down in a blaze of glory. Action without consequence is really boring and not all stories end in success (and DW TPK is a sight to behold). The players aren’t there to solve your dragon puzzle, but at the same time if they are just going to power game then I would argue they aren’t really playing DW in the spirit it was intended.
Also, as the GM, it is your responsibility to help the players play the game – rewarding bad choices (from the fiction perspective) just because of good rolls (which they probably should have had in the first place). After all, this is a role playing game, not a one player figures everything out and tells the other players what to do and makes your job as GM irrelevant story telling game. Unless that is your jam, in which case ignore the rest of my post 🙂
While being a fan of the characters is one thing, encouraging poor play is another. If their lack of planning didn’t give them insight on how to overcome some key aspect of the dragon situation (immunity to all damage but will fall in romantic love with anyone that offers tulips, or whatever), don’t be afraid to let the party go down in a blaze of glory. Action without consequence is really boring and not all stories end in success (and DW TPK is a sight to behold). The players aren’t there to solve your dragon puzzle, but at the same time if they are just going to power game then I would argue they aren’t really playing DW in the spirit it was intended.
Also, as the GM, it is your responsibility to help the players play the game – rewarding bad choices (from the fiction perspective) just because of good rolls (which they probably should have had in the first place). After all, this is a role playing game, not a one player figures everything out and tells the other players what to do and makes your job as GM irrelevant story telling game. Unless that is your jam, in which case ignore the rest of my post 🙂