DREAMING OF A DUNGEON WORLD REVISED EDITION
Disclaimer: I havent actually played yet. I have just read the rules about 5 times cover to cover. My 1st game will be in January.
All in all DW is a solid game. Most of it is fine as is. Being a Story Game, every sentence is very importent and really defines the gameplay. I don’t think the main body needs any changes.
That being said here are my thoughts on what would be nice to see in a revised edition:
-Change bonds to flags. (Listen to the Discern Realities podcast if you don’t know what that is). 😆
-Include more examples of gameplay.
-Include the Beginners Guide.
-Include the Barbarian playbook.
-Make minor changes to the character sheets layout (include slots for expendable like adventuring gear and such).
-Use the Followers rules from Perilous Wilds.
-Include the Dungeons Starter rules.
That’s what comes to mind quickly. Any comments and suggestions are welcome. ✌
I am down with this.
I am down with this.
all of these things are already avalible and in cases where there is money involved such as Perilous wilds, it’s very economical. DW is one of the easyest games to mod that I have ever played, and unlike most the only one who needs to have rules materials is the DM.
Personaly i’m sick of Revised Additions, more complex rules, this layered on that. in fact this is what drew me to Dw in the first place.
Now I do agree something akend to a Dragon mazagine would be awsome. where supplemnetary ideas can be adopted as cannon etc.
but man don’t go down the D&D path with DW. :0)
I feel ya. And most of those things sound good. But having only run two session, I don’t feel at all qualified to take part in this exercise. (Get back to me in a year or so.)
I’m sure if Sage and Adam decided to do a new edition, there are myriad things that they would tweak or overhaul. I just don’t know what those would be, because I haven’t really played the game yet. Right now it’s working for me as-is.
all of these things are already avalible and in cases where there is money involved such as Perilous wilds, it’s very economical. DW is one of the easyest games to mod that I have ever played, and unlike most the only one who needs to have rules materials is the DM.
Personaly i’m sick of Revised Additions, more complex rules, this layered on that. in fact this is what drew me to Dw in the first place.
Now I do agree something akend to a Dragon mazagine would be awsome. where supplemnetary ideas can be adopted as cannon etc.
but man don’t go down the D&D path with DW. :0)
I feel ya. And most of those things sound good. But having only run two session, I don’t feel at all qualified to take part in this exercise. (Get back to me in a year or so.)
I’m sure if Sage and Adam decided to do a new edition, there are myriad things that they would tweak or overhaul. I just don’t know what those would be, because I haven’t really played the game yet. Right now it’s working for me as-is.
granted i’ve only got 2 sessions of DW under my belt so far as DM. and zero as player. Session 1 was planned, session 2 had minimal prep. both went super well due to the simplicity of the rules of DW.
granted i’ve only got 2 sessions of DW under my belt so far as DM. and zero as player. Session 1 was planned, session 2 had minimal prep. both went super well due to the simplicity of the rules of DW.
It sounds like we already have our revised edition then, just not reprinted 😁 I’ve really enjoyed using flags, but I’ve had fun with bonds as well. My ideal revised edition would either be a tune-up like MH2 or a version that cleaves away from D&D and decides to be just DW. For example, I feel like the Black Gate is something wholly unique to DW, and it’s one of my favorite moves. Tracking rations is boring, and that’s why Undertake a Perilous Journey is one of my least favorite moves.
It sounds like we already have our revised edition then, just not reprinted 😁 I’ve really enjoyed using flags, but I’ve had fun with bonds as well. My ideal revised edition would either be a tune-up like MH2 or a version that cleaves away from D&D and decides to be just DW. For example, I feel like the Black Gate is something wholly unique to DW, and it’s one of my favorite moves. Tracking rations is boring, and that’s why Undertake a Perilous Journey is one of my least favorite moves.
Michael G. Barford You’ve never done Undertake a Perilous journey with me.
Michael G. Barford You’ve never done Undertake a Perilous journey with me.
Why would you want to change bonds if you haven’t used them in play? I certainly see where they’re weak, but they work quite well for what they do.
Why would you want to change bonds if you haven’t used them in play? I certainly see where they’re weak, but they work quite well for what they do.
David and I were talking about this the other day, and I’m not convinced a new or revised edition of DW is needed. More than any other PbtA game, DW has a pretty vibrant life outside of the core rules. Mods and custom procedures are some of the most fun things about it, and they tend to be very particularized to the group of players doing the modding. You know, I’m a big fan of Flags over Bonds, but that’s because Flags fit the way I organize games much better than Bonds (which tend to get shredded if you have a rotating cast of players, like I do). If I was playing with the same four people week in and week out, I would probably do Bonds. Or take Undertake a Perilous Journey, since Michael G. Barford mentioned it. Some people don’t like it, but it is my absolute favorite move in the game owing to my custom procedure I use in conjunction with it.
Honestly, in a weird way, World of Dungeons is probably closer to what I would want to see in a new DW, which is to say something more stripped down, that supports all the custom stuff you layer on top.
David and I were talking about this the other day, and I’m not convinced a new or revised edition of DW is needed. More than any other PbtA game, DW has a pretty vibrant life outside of the core rules. Mods and custom procedures are some of the most fun things about it, and they tend to be very particularized to the group of players doing the modding. You know, I’m a big fan of Flags over Bonds, but that’s because Flags fit the way I organize games much better than Bonds (which tend to get shredded if you have a rotating cast of players, like I do). If I was playing with the same four people week in and week out, I would probably do Bonds. Or take Undertake a Perilous Journey, since Michael G. Barford mentioned it. Some people don’t like it, but it is my absolute favorite move in the game owing to my custom procedure I use in conjunction with it.
Honestly, in a weird way, World of Dungeons is probably closer to what I would want to see in a new DW, which is to say something more stripped down, that supports all the custom stuff you layer on top.
Thank you all for the insights. This was just for the sake of starting a conversation. “Bows respectfully”
Thank you all for the insights. This was just for the sake of starting a conversation. “Bows respectfully”
As far as a Perilous Journey goes, I’ve had fun with the results of the move (my game with Daniel Fowler this week consisted of basically the results of that move and it was awesome) but as it’s written feels kind of lame. Sure, it’s a vast improvement over the resource micromanagement in simulationist games (IMHO), but it still bores me. You succeed? Nothing cool happens! This is unlike pretty much every other move in the book.
As far as a Perilous Journey goes, I’ve had fun with the results of the move (my game with Daniel Fowler this week consisted of basically the results of that move and it was awesome) but as it’s written feels kind of lame. Sure, it’s a vast improvement over the resource micromanagement in simulationist games (IMHO), but it still bores me. You succeed? Nothing cool happens! This is unlike pretty much every other move in the book.
I’m struggling with justifying hit points in DW. It is very tedious. I’m toying with the idea of something like what savage world uses. But I haven’t “cracked the code” yet.
I’m thinking about things like:
If your damage is more than 2/3 of your max it severely/mortally wounds an enemy and/ or gives the enemy a tag or permanent scar of some kind .
One third it just takes a solid hit (where 3 such hits would kill)
less than 1/3 of your max damage simply gets shrugged off.
PCs would use the same values. This, I think, would let me still use the hit point values listed along with the damage die while focusing more on the tags that weapons and monsters have.
I haven’t tried this, but I think that tags are the right path to head down. I hate sitting there worrying about three need to continue a fight simply to wear down hit points vs making the fight dramatic.
I’m struggling with justifying hit points in DW. It is very tedious. I’m toying with the idea of something like what savage world uses. But I haven’t “cracked the code” yet.
I’m thinking about things like:
If your damage is more than 2/3 of your max it severely/mortally wounds an enemy and/ or gives the enemy a tag or permanent scar of some kind .
One third it just takes a solid hit (where 3 such hits would kill)
less than 1/3 of your max damage simply gets shrugged off.
PCs would use the same values. This, I think, would let me still use the hit point values listed along with the damage die while focusing more on the tags that weapons and monsters have.
I haven’t tried this, but I think that tags are the right path to head down. I hate sitting there worrying about three need to continue a fight simply to wear down hit points vs making the fight dramatic.
jim miller I like tags but I hate division XD
jim miller I like tags but I hate division XD
Michael G. Barford I feel you.
#struggleisreal
Michael G. Barford I feel you.
#struggleisreal
jim miller Have you looked at how The Warren handles damage? It uses scars. When you take damage, you get a scar. The scar removes your ability to do one move.
In the game that I play with my kids, my son’s rabbit confronted a crazed fox and got a partial success with his attack roll requiring him to take damage.
We had him cross out the Speak Plainly move and justified it fictionally that he bit down on the fox’s leg and the fox bit into his rabbit’s face to get his character to let go. That tore his lip and will go on to make it difficult to convince rabbits to listen to him. Both for the fact that it is physically difficult, but also because rabbits are skittish and don’t like being reminded of their mortality.
I don’t know if it would work for Dungeon World, but it might.
jim miller Have you looked at how The Warren handles damage? It uses scars. When you take damage, you get a scar. The scar removes your ability to do one move.
In the game that I play with my kids, my son’s rabbit confronted a crazed fox and got a partial success with his attack roll requiring him to take damage.
We had him cross out the Speak Plainly move and justified it fictionally that he bit down on the fox’s leg and the fox bit into his rabbit’s face to get his character to let go. That tore his lip and will go on to make it difficult to convince rabbits to listen to him. Both for the fact that it is physically difficult, but also because rabbits are skittish and don’t like being reminded of their mortality.
I don’t know if it would work for Dungeon World, but it might.
Jim Jones Warren-style scars would be way too punishing for the adventure story style of Dungeon World. It’s some really harsh stuff.
Jim Jones Warren-style scars would be way too punishing for the adventure story style of Dungeon World. It’s some really harsh stuff.
The Warren is pretty brutal in that regard, but it is one of the things that got me started down this path
The Warren is pretty brutal in that regard, but it is one of the things that got me started down this path
Jesse Coombs I figured as much, but it is a different approach.
Jesse Coombs I figured as much, but it is a different approach.
Nice topic.
Lachiel Vaher – Codex is sort of like a Dragon for DW. As is Discern Realities when it comes down to it – just not written down.
Jim JonesJesse Coombsjim miller Regarding scars for DW. If you can lose both your character moves as well as basic moves, that might be interesting. Would wonder how to justify that in the fiction. Many players I can see choosing the Aid Interfere to remove first – but fictionally why would that be?
Acknowledged – HP is abstract, and while most of DW ties directly to the fiction, HP doesn’t really seem to. Even XP ties to the fiction pretty well – the gain xp when you fail feels right to me.
Nice topic.
Lachiel Vaher – Codex is sort of like a Dragon for DW. As is Discern Realities when it comes down to it – just not written down.
Jim JonesJesse Coombsjim miller Regarding scars for DW. If you can lose both your character moves as well as basic moves, that might be interesting. Would wonder how to justify that in the fiction. Many players I can see choosing the Aid Interfere to remove first – but fictionally why would that be?
Acknowledged – HP is abstract, and while most of DW ties directly to the fiction, HP doesn’t really seem to. Even XP ties to the fiction pretty well – the gain xp when you fail feels right to me.
Chris Shorb Yep! In episode one of DR, we defined the show as “audio Dragon magazine for DW.” That’s even why we call the AP “comic strip.” It’s a reference to the serialized, one-page comics in the back of Dragon.
Chris Shorb Yep! In episode one of DR, we defined the show as “audio Dragon magazine for DW.” That’s even why we call the AP “comic strip.” It’s a reference to the serialized, one-page comics in the back of Dragon.
The Indie Hack uses a version of scars, too. I personally don’t mind HP – the amounts are so low compared to D&D that they’re usually very easy to relate to the fiction. Even by the book, you can certainly give other effects on top of HP damage (that’s what “fiction first” is all about). I’m not sure about removing access to moves – it seems counter to the default heroic fantasy genre of the game. It could certainly work as a mod for gritty fantasy.
The Indie Hack uses a version of scars, too. I personally don’t mind HP – the amounts are so low compared to D&D that they’re usually very easy to relate to the fiction. Even by the book, you can certainly give other effects on top of HP damage (that’s what “fiction first” is all about). I’m not sure about removing access to moves – it seems counter to the default heroic fantasy genre of the game. It could certainly work as a mod for gritty fantasy.
I keep coming back to something like what i’ve heard on DR (or was it The Gauntlet, I forget…) about how Indie Hack does ‘scars’, or something more with the fiction that ‘tags’ produces.
(a messy weapon, leaves lots of cuts, including on the forehead which could cause limited vision. etc.)
I keep coming back to something like what i’ve heard on DR (or was it The Gauntlet, I forget…) about how Indie Hack does ‘scars’, or something more with the fiction that ‘tags’ produces.
(a messy weapon, leaves lots of cuts, including on the forehead which could cause limited vision. etc.)
I always have to page Slade Stolar into conversations that turn to scars.
I always have to page Slade Stolar into conversations that turn to scars.
Chris Shorb In The Warren, you can lose both.
Chris Shorb In The Warren, you can lose both.
Debilities are a thing. No reason you can’t just use those to simulate specific injuries. -1 is a pretty significant penalty in DW. And if you want the memory of the injury to linger, just have them note it in their “look” section.
Debilities are a thing. No reason you can’t just use those to simulate specific injuries. -1 is a pretty significant penalty in DW. And if you want the memory of the injury to linger, just have them note it in their “look” section.
So long as we are revising DW-ish games, I’m happy to note that The Indie Hack fixes literally everything that’s wrong with DW in the best possible way (that I could think of).
So long as we are revising DW-ish games, I’m happy to note that The Indie Hack fixes literally everything that’s wrong with DW in the best possible way (that I could think of).
Chris Shorb, technically in The Warren, you don’t “lose” the move, you just treat every result of any scarred move as a 6-.
Chris Shorb, technically in The Warren, you don’t “lose” the move, you just treat every result of any scarred move as a 6-.
Going back to original point of whether DW needs a new edition, I think something being overlooked is the barrier to entry Dungeon World currently has for new players, especially new players to the hobby.
With the “essential texts” (definitions on this can vary wildly, but just going off what was mentioned earlier in this thread as the core book+Perilous Wilds+the free Dungeon World Guide) spread across multiple sites and not particularly well advertised, it is not particularly easy, convenient, or welcoming for new players to get into the community or the game itself. Not to mention navigating through the mess of supplements of vastly variable quality on drivethru if you want to become more involved in the game. As someone with a moderate amount of experience with the system (not as much as some in the Gauntlet, but more than most I’d wager), I even find it overwhelming and avoid large swaths of the community due to simply feeling lost.
The only reason I’m pushing this viewpoint so fervently is because Dungeon World is being touted as a perfect first RPG by sites such as Geek & Sundry (http://geekandsundry.com/holiday-buyers-guide-rpgs-for-beginners/), and, while I believe it is a great tool to bring in new players (*cough*blood*cough*cultists*cough*Hail Soth), I think the current implementation can be so daunting a new player may be more inclined to go with a clear product line such as Dungeons & Dragons or Pathfinder.
geekandsundry.com – Holiday Buyer’s Guide: RPGs for Beginners | Geek and Sundry
Going back to original point of whether DW needs a new edition, I think something being overlooked is the barrier to entry Dungeon World currently has for new players, especially new players to the hobby.
With the “essential texts” (definitions on this can vary wildly, but just going off what was mentioned earlier in this thread as the core book+Perilous Wilds+the free Dungeon World Guide) spread across multiple sites and not particularly well advertised, it is not particularly easy, convenient, or welcoming for new players to get into the community or the game itself. Not to mention navigating through the mess of supplements of vastly variable quality on drivethru if you want to become more involved in the game. As someone with a moderate amount of experience with the system (not as much as some in the Gauntlet, but more than most I’d wager), I even find it overwhelming and avoid large swaths of the community due to simply feeling lost.
The only reason I’m pushing this viewpoint so fervently is because Dungeon World is being touted as a perfect first RPG by sites such as Geek & Sundry (http://geekandsundry.com/holiday-buyers-guide-rpgs-for-beginners/), and, while I believe it is a great tool to bring in new players (*cough*blood*cough*cultists*cough*Hail Soth), I think the current implementation can be so daunting a new player may be more inclined to go with a clear product line such as Dungeons & Dragons or Pathfinder.
geekandsundry.com – Holiday Buyer’s Guide: RPGs for Beginners | Geek and Sundry
Derek Grimm There’s some wisdom in that, I have to admit.
Derek Grimm There’s some wisdom in that, I have to admit.
If Adam and Sage (and by extension, the Burning Wheel crew, as they publish it) decided to make a “Basic” boxed set of Dungeon World (with input from Jason Cordova, who plays it more than anyone I know) and actually got it into stores, well, that would be awesome. I’m really tired of going into Barnes & Noble and seeing just Pathfinder and 5e.
If Adam and Sage (and by extension, the Burning Wheel crew, as they publish it) decided to make a “Basic” boxed set of Dungeon World (with input from Jason Cordova, who plays it more than anyone I know) and actually got it into stores, well, that would be awesome. I’m really tired of going into Barnes & Noble and seeing just Pathfinder and 5e.
Derek Grimm
Exactly. Some may say D&D produced new editions to frequently and for the wrong reasons. I must admit I felt a bit abused at times myself.
But if we want te see a game we love continue to prosper it as to get a fresh coat of paint once in a while.
Derek Grimm
Exactly. Some may say D&D produced new editions to frequently and for the wrong reasons. I must admit I felt a bit abused at times myself.
But if we want te see a game we love continue to prosper it as to get a fresh coat of paint once in a while.
I think that so much has been learned with new PBTA that if AW is being revised, it would be timely that DW be revised as well. I love this game to death, I don’t think it HAS to be reworked, but I could see so much benefit from revision
I think that so much has been learned with new PBTA that if AW is being revised, it would be timely that DW be revised as well. I love this game to death, I don’t think it HAS to be reworked, but I could see so much benefit from revision
Jesse Coombs Fair point. I went to a game shop in Sydney with a whole floor dedicated to RPGs a few weeks ago to try and grab a copy, and even they didn’t have it in stock. To be fair, they didn’t have a heap of indie stuff, but they did have some (and they had stacks of books from a number of game lines I’ve never even heard of). The guy at the counter made it clear that they had had it some time ago, but was pretty dismissive of the idea that they still would (he was also unhelpful in basically every other way possible, but still).
Jesse Coombs Fair point. I went to a game shop in Sydney with a whole floor dedicated to RPGs a few weeks ago to try and grab a copy, and even they didn’t have it in stock. To be fair, they didn’t have a heap of indie stuff, but they did have some (and they had stacks of books from a number of game lines I’ve never even heard of). The guy at the counter made it clear that they had had it some time ago, but was pretty dismissive of the idea that they still would (he was also unhelpful in basically every other way possible, but still).
Derek Grimm Good points, well made. I think DW has the potential to be a much more accessible game than D&D for new players, but its marketing and internet presence certainly work against that.
I’ve seen it pop up in a few Geek and Sundry lists, so someone there obviously digs it. I find that interesting, given that they host Critical Role (which has basically become the premiere RPG Actual Play thing on the internet). Given that those guys are all actors and the focus is very much on storytelling, DW would in many ways seem like a much more natural fit for them than D&D.
Imagine how big DW could get with a show with that kind of profile running it week to week? But I guess it’s a chicken/egg situation – I’m sure a large percentage of CR’s audience showed up initially because of the D&D brand recognition.
Derek Grimm Good points, well made. I think DW has the potential to be a much more accessible game than D&D for new players, but its marketing and internet presence certainly work against that.
I’ve seen it pop up in a few Geek and Sundry lists, so someone there obviously digs it. I find that interesting, given that they host Critical Role (which has basically become the premiere RPG Actual Play thing on the internet). Given that those guys are all actors and the focus is very much on storytelling, DW would in many ways seem like a much more natural fit for them than D&D.
Imagine how big DW could get with a show with that kind of profile running it week to week? But I guess it’s a chicken/egg situation – I’m sure a large percentage of CR’s audience showed up initially because of the D&D brand recognition.
I have to say that if Sage and Adam’s intent was to make the game more accessible/available, then going with Burning Wheel as a publisher was an… interesting choice. I wonder if they’ve had any other offers? I guess the whole creative commons thing makes it unlikely that a larger company would touch it. In some ways I get the impression that they’re slightly embarrassed about its success – i.e. That their mashup of AW with D&D did so much better financially than any of their peers original games.
I have to say that if Sage and Adam’s intent was to make the game more accessible/available, then going with Burning Wheel as a publisher was an… interesting choice. I wonder if they’ve had any other offers? I guess the whole creative commons thing makes it unlikely that a larger company would touch it. In some ways I get the impression that they’re slightly embarrassed about its success – i.e. That their mashup of AW with D&D did so much better financially than any of their peers original games.
(On another note: Does anyone find it a bit weird that the top three games on that Geek and Sundry list are alternative visions of one game? Just add Lamentations or DCC and you’ve kind of got the set. As much as I’m a sucker for the D&D vibe, it’s kind of depressing that they couldn’t manage more variety.)
(On another note: Does anyone find it a bit weird that the top three games on that Geek and Sundry list are alternative visions of one game? Just add Lamentations or DCC and you’ve kind of got the set. As much as I’m a sucker for the D&D vibe, it’s kind of depressing that they couldn’t manage more variety.)