I ran a game of Dungeon world the other day and had a lot of fun but also had a couple of interesting conversations that I later decided were connected.
The first was a discussion of how bards should be handled before starting the game. The classic example is whether or not a spell caster can cast magic in combat. Say a monster has knocked you down and is clawing at your throat. Is magic missile something you can easily throw around in that situation? Some systems have concentration mechanics and some specify the vocal, physical, mental and material requirements for each spell. I would never ask for that but when I play one of these classes I like to make magic into more of a performance or ritual. Sometimes this means you get charged by a minotaur and try to throw yourself out of the way. As a frail old man the better part of valor often includes screaming for help or hitting something in the back of the head with a stick. I usually let the bard or wizard decide how their magic works in games I run. But I encourage them to embrace the potentially weaker, but in my opinion, more interesting route. Make the spell caster someone who is kept around because he is incredibly useful, not because he can stand in a fight elbow to elbow with the warrior or paladin.
The second conversation was about monsters that traditionally required magic to kill. Is it ok to throw a ghost at the party if only one player has an obvious magic attack. What happens if he gets knocked out or if the combat drags because half the party is useless? At the time I didn’t know how the players would handle it and was a little worried myself. To my delight one of the players confronted the ghost in its native tongue and gave a very reasonable explanation to calm it down. They passed a charisma check and the spirit was appeased. We talked about a few other ways this could have worked out and generally came to the conclusion that they could have figured it out even if the check failed. If all else failed and the fight dragged on I could have ended the fight by having the ghost inhabit one of the players to cause mischief later. I think we all forgot that the fighter’s signature weapon is a magical item too. One player also voiced distaste for the tradition that magic always seems to work even when material means do not, and I agree it’s a bit unfair. I can imagine situations especially against powerful magic monsters (your liches and dragons) where a sword through the neck may be a lot more certain than attempting a battle of magical wills.
I thought about both these conversations later and decided they were connected. In fact I think the rules specifically encourage this sort of GM behavior with the GM move: “show a downside to their class, race or equipment”. Maybe we should not let the wizard / bard go hand to hand casting spells at point blank range and maybe there should be more battles with difficult to hurt monsters. Maybe the “magic always works” problem would seem less overpowered if the spell caster had to hide in the back when goblins ambushed the party. What do you guys think. How do you handle these situations. Are their right answers?
Thanks to James Etheridge, DrOrpheus166 and Christopher Meid for putting up with me.
Yes. I agree. The notion that player characters should only ever face challenges that directly line up with their abilities is preposterous. Because it is a game, though, players often think of “fair” as meaning just that. It’s “unfair” (they might think) to be presented with a monster they can’t defeat (probably because they are limiting their thinking). I love a challenge that comes at you from a solid right angle. It forces your thinking into right angles and makes the game more interesting. If every challenge comes from an expected vector, the result is predictably boring. I love that you tie to the “show a downside” move.
Re: expectations and magic specifically. If your players don’t buy into the ritual/performance nature of magic, then you as the GM can push harder on the back end by asserting the “wildness” factor to magic. IOW, if they regularly cast as a kind of knee-jerk, under duress kind of thing, you just wait for a failed roll and add serious backlash in the form of a hard move. Damage maybe. But maybe instead you burn up a resource – like the magic flares and sets something on fire or neutralizes their potion of healing or something. Or you mark them with some form of aberration. Something cool like that.
Yes. I agree. The notion that player characters should only ever face challenges that directly line up with their abilities is preposterous. Because it is a game, though, players often think of “fair” as meaning just that. It’s “unfair” (they might think) to be presented with a monster they can’t defeat (probably because they are limiting their thinking). I love a challenge that comes at you from a solid right angle. It forces your thinking into right angles and makes the game more interesting. If every challenge comes from an expected vector, the result is predictably boring. I love that you tie to the “show a downside” move.
Re: expectations and magic specifically. If your players don’t buy into the ritual/performance nature of magic, then you as the GM can push harder on the back end by asserting the “wildness” factor to magic. IOW, if they regularly cast as a kind of knee-jerk, under duress kind of thing, you just wait for a failed roll and add serious backlash in the form of a hard move. Damage maybe. But maybe instead you burn up a resource – like the magic flares and sets something on fire or neutralizes their potion of healing or something. Or you mark them with some form of aberration. Something cool like that.
I think having monsters that are harder to kill makes things interesting. I had a thief and a Bard trying to fight a Basilisk once. They couldn’t really do much to it, so they had to end up dropping a boulder on top of it. When another party couldn’t fight a ghost they instead realized they had to destroy the ghost’s desiccated corpse.
As for casting in a spot, defying danger beforehand has always been great in our games. If a beast has a spellcaster pinned down and the caster wants to use a spell, I would say if they wanted to slip free they could use DEX, or if they describe pushing it back with their legs so they can do their hand gestured, that would be with STR. They could also let the creature bite into them, defying danger with CON while they slip their hands around behind it and cast a magic missile at that conveniently placed stalactite above it. Whatever sounds cool and probable is preferable to being a GM who says no all the time I think.
I think having monsters that are harder to kill makes things interesting. I had a thief and a Bard trying to fight a Basilisk once. They couldn’t really do much to it, so they had to end up dropping a boulder on top of it. When another party couldn’t fight a ghost they instead realized they had to destroy the ghost’s desiccated corpse.
As for casting in a spot, defying danger beforehand has always been great in our games. If a beast has a spellcaster pinned down and the caster wants to use a spell, I would say if they wanted to slip free they could use DEX, or if they describe pushing it back with their legs so they can do their hand gestured, that would be with STR. They could also let the creature bite into them, defying danger with CON while they slip their hands around behind it and cast a magic missile at that conveniently placed stalactite above it. Whatever sounds cool and probable is preferable to being a GM who says no all the time I think.
GM: “What does casting magic missile look like? What do you do, how does it feel, all that?”
Player: “There’s no motions or anything. I just say an unpronounceable word of power a BAM my target is smote with arcane force. It doesn’t even appear as, like, a blast. I say the word and BOOM they just sort explode.”
GM: “Whoa. That’s pretty badass.”
Player:
….
Three sessions later, the PCs are exploring a cavern where this crystaline supernatural horror has been slowly growing and spreading. It perceives all that’s happening in the caves, and when the PC wizard speaks this terrible word of power (cast Magic Missile), oh snap, now the thing has heard it, too!
And it’s smart, and a battery for arcane energy, and its crystaline form can vibrate to “speak,” and so two scenes later it starts “speaking” this word of power back at the PCs, and they’re like AAHHHH AHH GET OUT!
GM: “What does casting magic missile look like? What do you do, how does it feel, all that?”
Player: “There’s no motions or anything. I just say an unpronounceable word of power a BAM my target is smote with arcane force. It doesn’t even appear as, like, a blast. I say the word and BOOM they just sort explode.”
GM: “Whoa. That’s pretty badass.”
Player:
….
Three sessions later, the PCs are exploring a cavern where this crystaline supernatural horror has been slowly growing and spreading. It perceives all that’s happening in the caves, and when the PC wizard speaks this terrible word of power (cast Magic Missile), oh snap, now the thing has heard it, too!
And it’s smart, and a battery for arcane energy, and its crystaline form can vibrate to “speak,” and so two scenes later it starts “speaking” this word of power back at the PCs, and they’re like AAHHHH AHH GET OUT!
I agree. I want to emphasize how you allow players to come at these problems with creative solutions. I am perfectly fine with every enemy not being able to die from a sword wound, but I think it is hugely important that monsters are not a lock and key system. By this I mean that there may be many solutions to the problem. Creatures that can only be killed by certain magics? I bet they don’t do so hot being buried under a mountain of rock, or weighed down and dropped in the ocean. Its important to let different character types have their moments, and often those moments come because the other character types are not as capable of dealing with the problem.
The reason I like the creative solutions approach is because it is in the spirit of being a fan of the characters, and it keeps the game from becoming an adversarial battle of the wits between the players and the GM. When I GM, I don’t appreciate players that feel like they need to out-think me. As long as they can find a solution that has a decent chance of working, I’m not out there to “get them.” I want their characters to have fantastic adventures!
I agree. I want to emphasize how you allow players to come at these problems with creative solutions. I am perfectly fine with every enemy not being able to die from a sword wound, but I think it is hugely important that monsters are not a lock and key system. By this I mean that there may be many solutions to the problem. Creatures that can only be killed by certain magics? I bet they don’t do so hot being buried under a mountain of rock, or weighed down and dropped in the ocean. Its important to let different character types have their moments, and often those moments come because the other character types are not as capable of dealing with the problem.
The reason I like the creative solutions approach is because it is in the spirit of being a fan of the characters, and it keeps the game from becoming an adversarial battle of the wits between the players and the GM. When I GM, I don’t appreciate players that feel like they need to out-think me. As long as they can find a solution that has a decent chance of working, I’m not out there to “get them.” I want their characters to have fantastic adventures!
The “monsters only vulnerable to X” conversation largely comes down to the old adage of “prep a situation, not a solution.”
And also: fleeing is sometimes fun.
The “monsters only vulnerable to X” conversation largely comes down to the old adage of “prep a situation, not a solution.”
And also: fleeing is sometimes fun.
As a player in this game, I have to say I enjoyed it and had no issues with the ghost because a) I rememered we could run away b) I remembered that Helga had a magic weapon c) the cleric was catching up with us and could possibly turn it. In fact, I thought the ghost was a great GM move that added to the fiction!
Regarding magic spell casting: I’m with Jeremy Strandberg: it’s all how the player defines it!. What gives me grief is that for some reason many people get hung up on the idea that a bard casting a spell with music is for some reason so less “realistic” or acceptable than a wizard waving their hands and shouting words of power. Really? We’re talking magic, people: not realistic at all. So, a person playing a bard will have to be more”convincing” in their depiction of their spellcasting than the wizard in order to meet the GM’s approval. Really? WTF? What if I say my wizard casts spells by singing ancient elvish songs? Does that pass muster? How is that different from a bard that chooses voice as their instrument?
Rant over. Now back to your regular programming.
As a player in this game, I have to say I enjoyed it and had no issues with the ghost because a) I rememered we could run away b) I remembered that Helga had a magic weapon c) the cleric was catching up with us and could possibly turn it. In fact, I thought the ghost was a great GM move that added to the fiction!
Regarding magic spell casting: I’m with Jeremy Strandberg: it’s all how the player defines it!. What gives me grief is that for some reason many people get hung up on the idea that a bard casting a spell with music is for some reason so less “realistic” or acceptable than a wizard waving their hands and shouting words of power. Really? We’re talking magic, people: not realistic at all. So, a person playing a bard will have to be more”convincing” in their depiction of their spellcasting than the wizard in order to meet the GM’s approval. Really? WTF? What if I say my wizard casts spells by singing ancient elvish songs? Does that pass muster? How is that different from a bard that chooses voice as their instrument?
Rant over. Now back to your regular programming.
Christopher Meid I recently talked about Bards with Jason Cordova on Discern Realities, and I see where you are coming from. I agree, I think that as long as a player comes to the table willing to sell me on how they cast magic as a bard in a fictionally interesting way, I’m in. Similar to the Wizard, I need to hear how it happens in the fiction. The difference is usually there is plenty of wizards in fictional source material, so players have an easier time saying how and I have an easier time understanding. I have a harder time finding fictional source material for bards casting magic, so the creative burden is sometimes a bit steeper. I despise a player who comes to the table and just wants to say “I cast magic missile” or “I use magic from my song.” Tell me what it looks like onscreen.
Christopher Meid I recently talked about Bards with Jason Cordova on Discern Realities, and I see where you are coming from. I agree, I think that as long as a player comes to the table willing to sell me on how they cast magic as a bard in a fictionally interesting way, I’m in. Similar to the Wizard, I need to hear how it happens in the fiction. The difference is usually there is plenty of wizards in fictional source material, so players have an easier time saying how and I have an easier time understanding. I have a harder time finding fictional source material for bards casting magic, so the creative burden is sometimes a bit steeper. I despise a player who comes to the table and just wants to say “I cast magic missile” or “I use magic from my song.” Tell me what it looks like onscreen.
I agree with what you are saying David LaFreniere but it definitely needs to be even handed. For instance, I also would expect Druids to describe how their shapeshifting magic works. Or even a fighter to explain how an odd tag on her weapon looks in the fiction. I wouldn’t want to single out bards on this. And frankly, I don’t find it that hard to describe bard magic. There are plenty of fictional creatures that enchant with song (sirens, for instance). Bene Gesserit from Dune are another interesting precedent. They use perfect pitch/modulation to affect human nervous systems.
I agree with what you are saying David LaFreniere but it definitely needs to be even handed. For instance, I also would expect Druids to describe how their shapeshifting magic works. Or even a fighter to explain how an odd tag on her weapon looks in the fiction. I wouldn’t want to single out bards on this. And frankly, I don’t find it that hard to describe bard magic. There are plenty of fictional creatures that enchant with song (sirens, for instance). Bene Gesserit from Dune are another interesting precedent. They use perfect pitch/modulation to affect human nervous systems.
Its true, I may have an anti-bard, Pro-wizard bias. Vocals are a bit different sense it seems doubly awkward to imagine a character playing a lute and concentrating on magic while being hacked at with an axe. It occurs to me that I would probably think the wizard player describing song magic was being creative while the bard singing is humdrum. the unfairness would have to be pointed out to me.
part of this conflict may be my war gamer / gamer perspective showing up. I value these classes as support types.
Its true, I may have an anti-bard, Pro-wizard bias. Vocals are a bit different sense it seems doubly awkward to imagine a character playing a lute and concentrating on magic while being hacked at with an axe. It occurs to me that I would probably think the wizard player describing song magic was being creative while the bard singing is humdrum. the unfairness would have to be pointed out to me.
part of this conflict may be my war gamer / gamer perspective showing up. I value these classes as support types.
Re bards, see also:
* The Finish Kalevala
* Deltron 3030
Re bards, see also:
* The Finish Kalevala
* Deltron 3030
Ray Otus Agreed! I want to hear about the sword fights, where you are swinging. I want to hear about the mad hop skip and a jump before that druids arms become falcon’s wings as they go tearing off into flight. I especially like hearing what the druid’s “tell” looks like in the current form they are in.
Ray Otus Agreed! I want to hear about the sword fights, where you are swinging. I want to hear about the mad hop skip and a jump before that druids arms become falcon’s wings as they go tearing off into flight. I especially like hearing what the druid’s “tell” looks like in the current form they are in.
Jeremy Strandberg Deltron 3030?
Jeremy Strandberg Deltron 3030?
Rap storyalbum by Del the Funky Homosapien, in which MCs power their magitech mechs via rap and do battle with each other.
At least, that’s my take.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deltron_3030_(album)
Rap storyalbum by Del the Funky Homosapien, in which MCs power their magitech mechs via rap and do battle with each other.
At least, that’s my take.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deltron_3030_(album)
Basically, think of a hip-hop throw down, and how an MC is talking themselves up, talking their crew up, talking smack about their opponents. Saying how badass they are, what they’re gonna do, weaving it with metaphor and simile.
Really similar to the epic song-battle between Väinämöinen and Joukahainen in the Kalevala.
Basically, think of a hip-hop throw down, and how an MC is talking themselves up, talking their crew up, talking smack about their opponents. Saying how badass they are, what they’re gonna do, weaving it with metaphor and simile.
Really similar to the epic song-battle between Väinämöinen and Joukahainen in the Kalevala.
Daniel Fowler “The group’s [titular] debut album Deltron 3030, released on October 17, 2000, is a concept album set in the year 3030 that tells of the fight by Deltron Zero (Del [the Funky Homosapien]’s alter ego) against huge corporations that rule the universe.”
Nice reference Jeremy Strandberg
Daniel Fowler “The group’s [titular] debut album Deltron 3030, released on October 17, 2000, is a concept album set in the year 3030 that tells of the fight by Deltron Zero (Del [the Funky Homosapien]’s alter ego) against huge corporations that rule the universe.”
Nice reference Jeremy Strandberg
This reminds me of Vince Gilligan talking about how the writing process for Breaking Bad involves repeatedly writing the characters into the most dangerous, inescapable situations they can imagine, and then having to find ways out of these corners they’ve painted themselves into.
It’s a bit trickier for role-players, as they have to come up with solutions in real time, but as long as the GM is willing to work with them (ie. be their fan), a solution will be found. And the scene will be much more memorable than the one where they just stabbed three goblins to death.
This reminds me of Vince Gilligan talking about how the writing process for Breaking Bad involves repeatedly writing the characters into the most dangerous, inescapable situations they can imagine, and then having to find ways out of these corners they’ve painted themselves into.
It’s a bit trickier for role-players, as they have to come up with solutions in real time, but as long as the GM is willing to work with them (ie. be their fan), a solution will be found. And the scene will be much more memorable than the one where they just stabbed three goblins to death.