I’d like to get some feedback for today’s podcast topic. I haven’t quite yet figured out how to characterize it, but the idea is, put simply, when and how should roleplaying games deal with heavy subject matter? For example, if the subject of the game is some sort of social inequality, or if the game deals with marginalized communities, what responsibilities does the author have, both in terms of the setting material and the mechanics? What obligations do game organizers have to their players? Same goes for games dealing with real-life tragedies, intense topics like sexual predation, and so forth.
General thoughts are ok here. We only have an afternoon to have this conversation, but I would be very grateful for the conte . . . I mean, feedback.
Who do you have talking on the podcast? The way I see it, that may be just as important as the topic itself.
Who do you have talking on the podcast? The way I see it, that may be just as important as the topic itself.
Andy Hauge Just Dan and Steve and I. The conversation is inspired by my initial irritation with Cartel. What were your thoughts?
Andy Hauge Just Dan and Steve and I. The conversation is inspired by my initial irritation with Cartel. What were your thoughts?
Wonder if RPGs are the best media to convey those themes in the first place. Its a game and as such folks will always treat it as “play” and not to be taken seriously. I think RPGs still have a problem of being very homogeneous, that’s changing at least at the DIY level, but still its a sea of patsy white.
Wonder if RPGs are the best media to convey those themes in the first place. Its a game and as such folks will always treat it as “play” and not to be taken seriously. I think RPGs still have a problem of being very homogeneous, that’s changing at least at the DIY level, but still its a sea of patsy white.
Jason Cordova: Mostly, I’d see what could be done to get the perspectives of people who could give some “inside” insight because they’re more directly affected by the heavy topics in question.
That said, given that you’re a Texas-based group, you probably have some of that already, at least when it comes to Cartel!
Jason Cordova: Mostly, I’d see what could be done to get the perspectives of people who could give some “inside” insight because they’re more directly affected by the heavy topics in question.
That said, given that you’re a Texas-based group, you probably have some of that already, at least when it comes to Cartel!
I think RPGs are a great medium for this kind of exploration but you have to have buy-in from everyone at the table. I’m not saying everyone has to be supercharged to jump on the topic; I simply mean they have to be “up for it” and in the mood to tackle something more serious. Role-playing games are, after all, a game and there is an implied lightheartedness to them, in my opinion. A good analogy is movies. Movies are explicitly “entertainment.” It’s true that sometimes you feel like watching a challenging movie. One that will intellectually provoke you or give your deeper and more complex feelings a work out. But a lot of the time you just want to be entertained. You can’t pick out the first type of movie and bring it home to your lover, family, or friends without checking in with them first. Otherwise you may be watching it alone. (Or worse, watching it with someone who is miserable but humoring you.) Dragging your friends through a similarly weighty role-playing game without appropriately gauging their interest is going to produce a sour experience.
I think RPGs are a great medium for this kind of exploration but you have to have buy-in from everyone at the table. I’m not saying everyone has to be supercharged to jump on the topic; I simply mean they have to be “up for it” and in the mood to tackle something more serious. Role-playing games are, after all, a game and there is an implied lightheartedness to them, in my opinion. A good analogy is movies. Movies are explicitly “entertainment.” It’s true that sometimes you feel like watching a challenging movie. One that will intellectually provoke you or give your deeper and more complex feelings a work out. But a lot of the time you just want to be entertained. You can’t pick out the first type of movie and bring it home to your lover, family, or friends without checking in with them first. Otherwise you may be watching it alone. (Or worse, watching it with someone who is miserable but humoring you.) Dragging your friends through a similarly weighty role-playing game without appropriately gauging their interest is going to produce a sour experience.
Games are a really good way to address a wide variety of topics, even heavy ones. If you’re going to include a heavy topic, address that topic intentionally! Your game will say something about it regardless so don’t just use it to move the plot along or decorate the setting because that will only speak to normalcy or acceptance.
Also, show the game to lots of people – it’s so easy when you’re slogging through the umpteenth revision of a text to leave things out only to read it a year later an realize all the smart thoughts and good intentions that were swirling in your head never got explicitly called out in the actual text. Even if they’re an emergent part of play, a reader can’t be expected to glean that result from a cold read. You want people to point out those gaps along the way so that you can fill them before you go to print.
Games are a really good way to address a wide variety of topics, even heavy ones. If you’re going to include a heavy topic, address that topic intentionally! Your game will say something about it regardless so don’t just use it to move the plot along or decorate the setting because that will only speak to normalcy or acceptance.
Also, show the game to lots of people – it’s so easy when you’re slogging through the umpteenth revision of a text to leave things out only to read it a year later an realize all the smart thoughts and good intentions that were swirling in your head never got explicitly called out in the actual text. Even if they’re an emergent part of play, a reader can’t be expected to glean that result from a cold read. You want people to point out those gaps along the way so that you can fill them before you go to print.
Big topic. My belief is that you have to allow for art to challenge your comfort zone. That’s pretty much what art is all about — changing society by getting under people’s hardened beliefs. It’s threatening by definition. But then, stuff like the Jenny Jones Show, or the Jerry Springer Show, isn’t art. So I think you need to look at a game and decide if it has an artistic purpose for its heavy subject matter. Nicotine Girls does. It has something to say. It’s not just lurid voyeurism. With RPGs maybe it’s a little harder. A designer with no particular artistic purpose could believe that players will bring artistic purpose to the play experience. “This is important, heavy stuff, and people will be drawn to it because it gives them a platform to express something important.” I tend to doubt it. I think mostly what you get is reiteration of known tropes. So I don’t design that way.
Big topic. My belief is that you have to allow for art to challenge your comfort zone. That’s pretty much what art is all about — changing society by getting under people’s hardened beliefs. It’s threatening by definition. But then, stuff like the Jenny Jones Show, or the Jerry Springer Show, isn’t art. So I think you need to look at a game and decide if it has an artistic purpose for its heavy subject matter. Nicotine Girls does. It has something to say. It’s not just lurid voyeurism. With RPGs maybe it’s a little harder. A designer with no particular artistic purpose could believe that players will bring artistic purpose to the play experience. “This is important, heavy stuff, and people will be drawn to it because it gives them a platform to express something important.” I tend to doubt it. I think mostly what you get is reiteration of known tropes. So I don’t design that way.
Marshall Miller I think that was my biggest issue with Cartel when I first looked at the playbooks. It felt like the Mexican drug trade was just set dressing for a GTA-style game. I’m going to take a look at the whole text in order to refine my thoughts on it, because I know Mark Diaz Truman’s intentions with the game were good ones, but it got me thinking about a) what should I expect, as a consumer of games, from the people designing them and b) what obligations do I have as an organizer of games to the people playing them with me?
Andy Hauge I’m sure none of the three of us are qualified to give much personal insight, given that we each have benefitted from varying levels of privilege. But that could also be why it’s important for us to talk about it. For my part, I was gay before it was cool, and had to put up with a lot of bullshit on that front in my early adulthood. Specifically related to the subject matter in Cartel, before I got my present job, a good portion of my law practice involved helping poor people displaced by the violence in Mexico, giving me a somewhat unique insight when it comes to the effects of the drug trade on civilians (although anyone can look this stuff up, if they wish), and my initial thoughts on Cartel were that the game was not adequately addressing them (though I acknowledge it may well in the final text).
Marshall Miller I think that was my biggest issue with Cartel when I first looked at the playbooks. It felt like the Mexican drug trade was just set dressing for a GTA-style game. I’m going to take a look at the whole text in order to refine my thoughts on it, because I know Mark Diaz Truman’s intentions with the game were good ones, but it got me thinking about a) what should I expect, as a consumer of games, from the people designing them and b) what obligations do I have as an organizer of games to the people playing them with me?
Andy Hauge I’m sure none of the three of us are qualified to give much personal insight, given that we each have benefitted from varying levels of privilege. But that could also be why it’s important for us to talk about it. For my part, I was gay before it was cool, and had to put up with a lot of bullshit on that front in my early adulthood. Specifically related to the subject matter in Cartel, before I got my present job, a good portion of my law practice involved helping poor people displaced by the violence in Mexico, giving me a somewhat unique insight when it comes to the effects of the drug trade on civilians (although anyone can look this stuff up, if they wish), and my initial thoughts on Cartel were that the game was not adequately addressing them (though I acknowledge it may well in the final text).
Its tough to give any good general rules here. Most social issues are not black and white and by the nature of the game, to be a game, someone will probably have to take the other side, or play devils advocate.
I could imagine a game where the players take on the role of the downtrodden workers trying to keep their livelihoods and their dignity as the rich factory owners try to maximize profits at the cost of safety and living conditions.
I could also imagine a game where the players take on the role of the “Job creator” constantly being hounded by lazy, corrupt and possibly communist union representatives while pursing the American dream.
In both these examples the DM would probably take on the role of the worst stereotypes of the opposition. If the DM instead chose to play reasonable three dimensional humans, or if all the players had the opportunity to play one or both sides in the same game., it would probably just devolve into an argument / political rant (aka: real life)
Certainly debate (real debate, not jut yelling and ignoring) is an important exercise and understanding the other side should be encouraged, but I don’t know if it would make a fun game or encourage people to come hang out again.
Maybe the best solution would be to make both of the first two games and explicitly state the bias in both and encourage the players to play both separately to try to get an idea of both sides.
Its tough to give any good general rules here. Most social issues are not black and white and by the nature of the game, to be a game, someone will probably have to take the other side, or play devils advocate.
I could imagine a game where the players take on the role of the downtrodden workers trying to keep their livelihoods and their dignity as the rich factory owners try to maximize profits at the cost of safety and living conditions.
I could also imagine a game where the players take on the role of the “Job creator” constantly being hounded by lazy, corrupt and possibly communist union representatives while pursing the American dream.
In both these examples the DM would probably take on the role of the worst stereotypes of the opposition. If the DM instead chose to play reasonable three dimensional humans, or if all the players had the opportunity to play one or both sides in the same game., it would probably just devolve into an argument / political rant (aka: real life)
Certainly debate (real debate, not jut yelling and ignoring) is an important exercise and understanding the other side should be encouraged, but I don’t know if it would make a fun game or encourage people to come hang out again.
Maybe the best solution would be to make both of the first two games and explicitly state the bias in both and encourage the players to play both separately to try to get an idea of both sides.
What I see as specific for roleplaying games when handling topics like that is the issue of multiple authors. You don’t only have the game designer, even if they are writing the core text. You also have the players at the table. Of course including the GM who in many games has the most respobsibility for the tone and how the subject matter of a game is handeled.
Any one of those authors can turn a difficult topic around towards exploitation or at least insensitivity. So I would say everyone should know what they are doing before they sit down. The author of the core text and maybe the facilitator of the game in my opinion have some responsibility to give some advice how to handle the material and actual play it. Assuming it is actually meant to be played that is.
Mistakes are bound to happen and should be excuseable, especially at the table, a little less with an actual commercial product. But afford should be made.
I would see a need for some techniques and advice in handling whatever material the game is about. It can be ingrained in the mechanics and dynamics of play or it can just be advice.
The “Queer Content” chapter in Monsterhearts giving some context to the mechanics is an example that comes to mind and is actually helpful in understanding how the game is played and what is to be expected. The mechanics alone would not have related that.
There are of course design questions that come with games about heavy subjects. Like who the audience is? If they should be meant to be played? If they should be enjoyable to play?
Some games I saw seemed more the designer writing about a personal trauma in their medium, which happens to be roleplaying games. Examples would be the first edition of Little Fears and Silence Keeps Me A Victim, both about childhood abuse. The Shoah sourcebook for Wraith: the Oblivion about the holocaust and it’s lingering legacy.
I’d personally never deny anyone the right to write in whatever medium they please. The problem with books like those is how to respectfully handle them at the table and where the line of “Maybe we shouldn’t play this” is. But in the end I think it is a matter of personal player and reader responsibility not necessarily on the author.
Writing about a heavy topic as an outsider and / or for an “enjoyable” game would need more tactfulness and maybe scrutiny. But I would say it can be done and should be tried. Approaching dificult subjects should be something roleplaying games can do.
I would say the responsibility of the author would be to be give it their honest best and really put thought into what they have to say about the topic and if that is something that needs to be heard.
I can’t answer the question how they would ideally approach it or what actual mechanics and dynamics should be “allowed”. Not enough of a game designer to do so.
If a game approaches a heavy subject matter it should not be expected to be universally liked. There should be open ears for critic, especially from those affected by the subject matter. Also it should be expected that some people just don’t want to play a or even read a game about it or won’t give the author the benefit of the doubt and they are in the right to draw their personal lines.
What I see as specific for roleplaying games when handling topics like that is the issue of multiple authors. You don’t only have the game designer, even if they are writing the core text. You also have the players at the table. Of course including the GM who in many games has the most respobsibility for the tone and how the subject matter of a game is handeled.
Any one of those authors can turn a difficult topic around towards exploitation or at least insensitivity. So I would say everyone should know what they are doing before they sit down. The author of the core text and maybe the facilitator of the game in my opinion have some responsibility to give some advice how to handle the material and actual play it. Assuming it is actually meant to be played that is.
Mistakes are bound to happen and should be excuseable, especially at the table, a little less with an actual commercial product. But afford should be made.
I would see a need for some techniques and advice in handling whatever material the game is about. It can be ingrained in the mechanics and dynamics of play or it can just be advice.
The “Queer Content” chapter in Monsterhearts giving some context to the mechanics is an example that comes to mind and is actually helpful in understanding how the game is played and what is to be expected. The mechanics alone would not have related that.
There are of course design questions that come with games about heavy subjects. Like who the audience is? If they should be meant to be played? If they should be enjoyable to play?
Some games I saw seemed more the designer writing about a personal trauma in their medium, which happens to be roleplaying games. Examples would be the first edition of Little Fears and Silence Keeps Me A Victim, both about childhood abuse. The Shoah sourcebook for Wraith: the Oblivion about the holocaust and it’s lingering legacy.
I’d personally never deny anyone the right to write in whatever medium they please. The problem with books like those is how to respectfully handle them at the table and where the line of “Maybe we shouldn’t play this” is. But in the end I think it is a matter of personal player and reader responsibility not necessarily on the author.
Writing about a heavy topic as an outsider and / or for an “enjoyable” game would need more tactfulness and maybe scrutiny. But I would say it can be done and should be tried. Approaching dificult subjects should be something roleplaying games can do.
I would say the responsibility of the author would be to be give it their honest best and really put thought into what they have to say about the topic and if that is something that needs to be heard.
I can’t answer the question how they would ideally approach it or what actual mechanics and dynamics should be “allowed”. Not enough of a game designer to do so.
If a game approaches a heavy subject matter it should not be expected to be universally liked. There should be open ears for critic, especially from those affected by the subject matter. Also it should be expected that some people just don’t want to play a or even read a game about it or won’t give the author the benefit of the doubt and they are in the right to draw their personal lines.
I agree that when you set down to play a game that addresses heavy issues that it has to be addressed up front. However this is true of any game really as you want everyone on the same page. If you are playing a high fantasy game then that should be stated just as much if you are playing a game about intercity poverty.
In a game that is dealing with heavier issues you need to schedule in a bit more introduction about what behavior/subject matter is acceptable and what is encouraged and what is discouraged. You also need to schedule in a debrief session after play to discuss how it went and what people felt about the game and the issues brought up in the game. You may also want to build in a half way point check in if it’s a long session game. A lot of this sort of debrief stuff is handled all the time in freeform LARP especially the Nordic style stuff which gets heavy with topics.
Some tabletop people use the X card and lines and veils to set up safe space for gaming. I personally like to use the LARP rules of Cut & Brake instead of the X Card for my games. Either of these techniques are useful for dealing with heavier topics since when people know there is a way for them to say something isn’t comfortable then they often feel more comfortable taking their character to a darker more vulnerable place. If you aren’t aware of these techniques I recommend checking them out.
I would also highly recommend watching some of the Gaming as Other panel discussions and video shorts put on by Strix and Ajit. They talk a lot about the issues involved in gaming as people not yourself whether that be minorities or people in poverty or whatever and how best to approach this in games.
http://www.strixwerks.com/gaming
I agree that when you set down to play a game that addresses heavy issues that it has to be addressed up front. However this is true of any game really as you want everyone on the same page. If you are playing a high fantasy game then that should be stated just as much if you are playing a game about intercity poverty.
In a game that is dealing with heavier issues you need to schedule in a bit more introduction about what behavior/subject matter is acceptable and what is encouraged and what is discouraged. You also need to schedule in a debrief session after play to discuss how it went and what people felt about the game and the issues brought up in the game. You may also want to build in a half way point check in if it’s a long session game. A lot of this sort of debrief stuff is handled all the time in freeform LARP especially the Nordic style stuff which gets heavy with topics.
Some tabletop people use the X card and lines and veils to set up safe space for gaming. I personally like to use the LARP rules of Cut & Brake instead of the X Card for my games. Either of these techniques are useful for dealing with heavier topics since when people know there is a way for them to say something isn’t comfortable then they often feel more comfortable taking their character to a darker more vulnerable place. If you aren’t aware of these techniques I recommend checking them out.
I would also highly recommend watching some of the Gaming as Other panel discussions and video shorts put on by Strix and Ajit. They talk a lot about the issues involved in gaming as people not yourself whether that be minorities or people in poverty or whatever and how best to approach this in games.
http://www.strixwerks.com/gaming
I think more so than other tabletop games, the personalities at the table will matter a lot more in a game that tries to address serious issues. Is there one girl that says she’s up for it, but who will not take it seriously? Is there a guy there who is up for it, but only because he sees it as a chance to show off how much more forward-thinking he is than the neanderthals he’s been stooping to play with? Is there one girl there that still has not gotten the idea that this isn’t a game that you “win”?
It’s been mentioned that art transgresses boundaries. That’s true as far as it goes, but there is an element of consent involved. That everyone needs to be on board has been mentioned, but one aspect I haven’t seen mentioned yet is that whether I consent to have my boundaries transgressed depends not just on the game but on the transgressor. The laid back guy I’ve been playing with for over 20 years? Yeah, okay. The bi-polar guy that flies a Confederate flag on his front porch? That’s a harder sell.
I actually played in a fantasy RPG one time with a guy that, as soon as he got behind the GM screen, had aliens land and subject the party to a 60-minute long rant about how inferior our barbaric civilization was. And, that was in a game that up-until then had focused on trad-style dungeon crawls. The party finally got fed up and attacked the aliens, and were promptly killed with laser fire. Then they resurrected us with bizarre alien science and resumed their rant. The entire adventure was like spending an afternoon with a bright, but arrogant and naive, college sophomore and not being allowed to say anything.
Did I feel transgressed? Yep. Did I think it was an artistic experience, or have fun, or learn anything except that some people aren’t right for GM’ing? Nope.
I think more so than other tabletop games, the personalities at the table will matter a lot more in a game that tries to address serious issues. Is there one girl that says she’s up for it, but who will not take it seriously? Is there a guy there who is up for it, but only because he sees it as a chance to show off how much more forward-thinking he is than the neanderthals he’s been stooping to play with? Is there one girl there that still has not gotten the idea that this isn’t a game that you “win”?
It’s been mentioned that art transgresses boundaries. That’s true as far as it goes, but there is an element of consent involved. That everyone needs to be on board has been mentioned, but one aspect I haven’t seen mentioned yet is that whether I consent to have my boundaries transgressed depends not just on the game but on the transgressor. The laid back guy I’ve been playing with for over 20 years? Yeah, okay. The bi-polar guy that flies a Confederate flag on his front porch? That’s a harder sell.
I actually played in a fantasy RPG one time with a guy that, as soon as he got behind the GM screen, had aliens land and subject the party to a 60-minute long rant about how inferior our barbaric civilization was. And, that was in a game that up-until then had focused on trad-style dungeon crawls. The party finally got fed up and attacked the aliens, and were promptly killed with laser fire. Then they resurrected us with bizarre alien science and resumed their rant. The entire adventure was like spending an afternoon with a bright, but arrogant and naive, college sophomore and not being allowed to say anything.
Did I feel transgressed? Yep. Did I think it was an artistic experience, or have fun, or learn anything except that some people aren’t right for GM’ing? Nope.
Yeah “don’t play with assholes” is a rule for most games but you’re right that it has a stronger effect on serious games.
Yeah “don’t play with assholes” is a rule for most games but you’re right that it has a stronger effect on serious games.
And with all this consenting and understand that has to go on before the game is even played, I think demonstrates also why RPGs might not be the best medium.
With books, movies, and songs you have an already consented (by purchase) and captive audience to your closed narrative. There is far less room from misinterpretation. Its easier to drive the point home.
So a movie/documentary about the cartels in Mexico will, on average, drive the point about how terrible they are home far quicker than and RPG.
In an RPG, there is freedom. The player can/will make up they story on their own and introduce their own bias to the proceedings.
And with all this consenting and understand that has to go on before the game is even played, I think demonstrates also why RPGs might not be the best medium.
With books, movies, and songs you have an already consented (by purchase) and captive audience to your closed narrative. There is far less room from misinterpretation. Its easier to drive the point home.
So a movie/documentary about the cartels in Mexico will, on average, drive the point about how terrible they are home far quicker than and RPG.
In an RPG, there is freedom. The player can/will make up they story on their own and introduce their own bias to the proceedings.
I totally disagree that RPGs are the wrong medium to discuss these things just because discussion and consent is needed to make it work well. I mean you say that like having discussion and consent is hard, which honestly it’s not. It’s easy and worthwhile and a can be a fun learning process all its own. And it can set up for an amazing game especially as everyone is on the same page and ready to sink in for some potentially profound storytelling.
I’ve played in several games, both tabletop and LARP, that dealt with heavy topics — more so on the LARP side. If anything the experience was more illuminating because it was a game that I was part of.
I totally disagree that RPGs are the wrong medium to discuss these things just because discussion and consent is needed to make it work well. I mean you say that like having discussion and consent is hard, which honestly it’s not. It’s easy and worthwhile and a can be a fun learning process all its own. And it can set up for an amazing game especially as everyone is on the same page and ready to sink in for some potentially profound storytelling.
I’ve played in several games, both tabletop and LARP, that dealt with heavy topics — more so on the LARP side. If anything the experience was more illuminating because it was a game that I was part of.
Also books, music, movies have less room for misinterpretation? Hah!
A fine example of how people misinterpret media would be the movie Fight Club. Tons of guys love the movie and see Tyler as an example real masculinity to be idolized. Whereas the movie is really a critique on this very same masculinity myth of what it takes to be a man. They also praise it’s anti-capitalist message when really the fight against capitalism in the movie is just another side of the same satire on masculinity — instead of actions that may really work to fix capitalism they instead attack it with violent masculine magical realism.
Now instead imagine a Fight Club game where it was discussed up front that this is to be satire on the cultural assumptions about masculinity. Would the same acts be played out? Sure but it’s also likely that the players would walk away thinking a bit about their own relationship to the culture of masculinity.
Also books, music, movies have less room for misinterpretation? Hah!
A fine example of how people misinterpret media would be the movie Fight Club. Tons of guys love the movie and see Tyler as an example real masculinity to be idolized. Whereas the movie is really a critique on this very same masculinity myth of what it takes to be a man. They also praise it’s anti-capitalist message when really the fight against capitalism in the movie is just another side of the same satire on masculinity — instead of actions that may really work to fix capitalism they instead attack it with violent masculine magical realism.
Now instead imagine a Fight Club game where it was discussed up front that this is to be satire on the cultural assumptions about masculinity. Would the same acts be played out? Sure but it’s also likely that the players would walk away thinking a bit about their own relationship to the culture of masculinity.
If the game is the draw, then the game is also a chance to talk directly about the issue. A forward or essay by someone with experience or expertise regarding the subject matter can lend mindful context and educate the reader about the reality of the real world situation, perhaps even pointing the reader to other primary and secondary sources. (I can’t tell you how many history books I read because of D&D, how many books/papers about rabbits I read because of The Warren, or how many newspaper articles I read because of Fiasco.) Engagement in the game can translate to engagement with the issue.
If the game is the draw, then the game is also a chance to talk directly about the issue. A forward or essay by someone with experience or expertise regarding the subject matter can lend mindful context and educate the reader about the reality of the real world situation, perhaps even pointing the reader to other primary and secondary sources. (I can’t tell you how many history books I read because of D&D, how many books/papers about rabbits I read because of The Warren, or how many newspaper articles I read because of Fiasco.) Engagement in the game can translate to engagement with the issue.
I never said books, movies, music never suffered from misinterpretation, just that they have less room for misinterpretation than RPGs- I’ll stand by that. Bros that misinterpret Fight Club the book and the movie are not going to be more enlightened by the RPG. In fact, the RPG structure might be more confusing.
Sure, if you have a discussion up front about the game, it primes the players about the game, but then you take away some of the RPG freedom. And you still could have players completely miss the point as if they become more attracted to combat in Fight Club: The RPG than the anti-capitalistic RP that supposed to go on. A story/movie/book removes this possibility by confining the narrative to ONLY the events the author wants to happen. In an RPG, this is railroading and its considered poor form for the GM to do too much of. However in a story is helps define key points about the narrative.
Oversimplified: If you want folks to sympathize with each other then create a shared experience, but not a forced one. I’ll learn more about porn stars if I play D&D with them than I will sitting around with a bunch of guys trying to play PORNSTARS: The RPG- which is about them.
I never said books, movies, music never suffered from misinterpretation, just that they have less room for misinterpretation than RPGs- I’ll stand by that. Bros that misinterpret Fight Club the book and the movie are not going to be more enlightened by the RPG. In fact, the RPG structure might be more confusing.
Sure, if you have a discussion up front about the game, it primes the players about the game, but then you take away some of the RPG freedom. And you still could have players completely miss the point as if they become more attracted to combat in Fight Club: The RPG than the anti-capitalistic RP that supposed to go on. A story/movie/book removes this possibility by confining the narrative to ONLY the events the author wants to happen. In an RPG, this is railroading and its considered poor form for the GM to do too much of. However in a story is helps define key points about the narrative.
Oversimplified: If you want folks to sympathize with each other then create a shared experience, but not a forced one. I’ll learn more about porn stars if I play D&D with them than I will sitting around with a bunch of guys trying to play PORNSTARS: The RPG- which is about them.
I agree that you can’t force anyone to get the point — forcing anyone to play a game they aren’t into won’t make for a good game no matter the genre/topic. And as you say, it’s highly likely that you’ll always have people missing the point. But that doesn’t insubstantiate games as a potentially useful medium for learning about what it’s like to be other. I’m thinking specifically of profound games like Just a Little Loving, which is a LARP about what it was like to be gay during the early 80s as the AIDs epidemic strikes home. Or on the tabletop front, Dream Askew or Monster Hearts, both of which have built in mechanics which encourage a more nuanced or fluid view of gender and sexual identity. Of course, you can’t and wouldn’t want to force anyone to play any of these games, but if people are open to it they may just walk away with a different understanding.
Your statement that discussing things up front and priming players takes away from the RPG freedom, is equally true of just playing a game of D&D — I mean that’s a game that primes people to play a certain way. In fact, all games prime players on one way or another. Discussing how the players want to approach a sensitive topic isn’t much different than players agreeing that they want their Apocalypse World to take place at sea like in Water World. They both focus the game in a certain style which isn’t really the same as railroading — though let’s not go there as the spectrum of what is and what isn’t railroading is a rabbit hole of a completely different topic.
I agree that you can’t force anyone to get the point — forcing anyone to play a game they aren’t into won’t make for a good game no matter the genre/topic. And as you say, it’s highly likely that you’ll always have people missing the point. But that doesn’t insubstantiate games as a potentially useful medium for learning about what it’s like to be other. I’m thinking specifically of profound games like Just a Little Loving, which is a LARP about what it was like to be gay during the early 80s as the AIDs epidemic strikes home. Or on the tabletop front, Dream Askew or Monster Hearts, both of which have built in mechanics which encourage a more nuanced or fluid view of gender and sexual identity. Of course, you can’t and wouldn’t want to force anyone to play any of these games, but if people are open to it they may just walk away with a different understanding.
Your statement that discussing things up front and priming players takes away from the RPG freedom, is equally true of just playing a game of D&D — I mean that’s a game that primes people to play a certain way. In fact, all games prime players on one way or another. Discussing how the players want to approach a sensitive topic isn’t much different than players agreeing that they want their Apocalypse World to take place at sea like in Water World. They both focus the game in a certain style which isn’t really the same as railroading — though let’s not go there as the spectrum of what is and what isn’t railroading is a rabbit hole of a completely different topic.
Very interesting discussion. On the podcast, we landed on Monsterhearts being the gold standard for games that 1) explain, in the text, what the game is trying to accomplish in terms of difficult subject matter, 2) incorporate that goal into the actual mechanics of the game and 3) are also very fun. I think if a designer has the intention of tackling a touchy subject in an RPG, they should strive for what Avery Mcdaldno did with MH.
Very interesting discussion. On the podcast, we landed on Monsterhearts being the gold standard for games that 1) explain, in the text, what the game is trying to accomplish in terms of difficult subject matter, 2) incorporate that goal into the actual mechanics of the game and 3) are also very fun. I think if a designer has the intention of tackling a touchy subject in an RPG, they should strive for what Avery Mcdaldno did with MH.
Yay Monster Hearts! Good choice. It is really clear in the rules about all that.
Yay Monster Hearts! Good choice. It is really clear in the rules about all that.