We have been big supporters of Mark Diaz Truman’s work in the past, but I would like to suggest this game is in very bad taste. As an attorney who has spent a good portion of his legal career dealing with the fallout from the atrocities of drug trafficking from Mexico, I may just be a little too close to the subject, but I don’t know . . . this one just seems like it needs to be put back on the shelf.
Here is my comment on another thread (slightly paraphrased), which I think adequately sums up my issues with it:
“After just a quick skim of the playbooks, [glorifying violence] is all it seems to do. But, of course, we play lots of games that do this. The difference is those games are either a) fantastical in nature or b) have some historical distance from the subject matter.
No one likes a scold (least of all me), but i think a few things need to be said here:
1. The acts of violence that are taking place across the border are barbaric. And they are taking place right now.
2. Much of this violence is directed at women (ask me about the father I worked with on an immigration matter whose two daughters were each be-headed in narco-related violence). I find it sadly amusing that this vector of our hobby pays so much lip service to sexism and the treatment of women in the play space, and yet we have a blind spot for something like this?
3. Speaking of that blind spot, I would like to suggest it is there because the victims are Mexicans; a textbook example of othering that allows us to say “Haha, let’s play this game about drug dealers, muchachos, won’t that be fun?” and not feel guilty about it.”
Haven’t played or looked at it but this is the sense I got just hearing about the game. Totally the wrong kind of “playing as other.” It’s good to hear Jason Cordova your experienced opinion on it.
Haven’t played or looked at it but this is the sense I got just hearing about the game. Totally the wrong kind of “playing as other.” It’s good to hear Jason Cordova your experienced opinion on it.
Colin Fahrion I mean, I would hold my fire here if I thought the game was a thought-provoking exploration of these very real and present tragedies, but I’m not sure that is what is going on here. You can tell a lot about a game’s goals by looking at the way you interact with it mechanically, and this is especially the case with a PbtA game’s Moves. I’m not seeing anything so far that makes me think we are supposed to view these characters unsympathetically. I guess giving them a move called “Rape and then Behead Her” would be a little too on the nose.
Colin Fahrion I mean, I would hold my fire here if I thought the game was a thought-provoking exploration of these very real and present tragedies, but I’m not sure that is what is going on here. You can tell a lot about a game’s goals by looking at the way you interact with it mechanically, and this is especially the case with a PbtA game’s Moves. I’m not seeing anything so far that makes me think we are supposed to view these characters unsympathetically. I guess giving them a move called “Rape and then Behead Her” would be a little too on the nose.
I’ve heard good things about The Hood doing a better job about real life issues in regards to minorities living in urban poverty.
I’ve heard good things about The Hood doing a better job about real life issues in regards to minorities living in urban poverty.
Colin Fahrion The Hood is not my favorite, mechanically-speaking, but I definitely didn’t have the same visceral reaction when I played it. But I fully acknowledge it could be because I have become de-sensitized to urban violence.
Colin Fahrion The Hood is not my favorite, mechanically-speaking, but I definitely didn’t have the same visceral reaction when I played it. But I fully acknowledge it could be because I have become de-sensitized to urban violence.
In the interest of fairness, I’m going to paste-in Mark Diaz Truman’s response to me from the other thread:
First, thanks for posting here. I think your concerns are real, and I’m going to do my best to address them. It may be that I can’t address them to your satisfaction, but I’m going to try. If you’d like, I’d be happy to send you a PDF of the game, and you can judge the full thing for yourself. I’d love to hear how you think I could address the concerns you have, once you’ve read the full text.
@All- I don’t think there’s any reason to assume that Jason’s concerns aren’t in good faith, and I agree with him that my heritage doesn’t offer me much defense if I’ve fucked this up (nor do I think we should be in the habit of trying to determine who is “Mexican” or “brown” over the internet). Let’s all be Fonzie’s and try to have a cool conversation here.
Let me start by saying that the concerns Jason raises are exactly the concerns that led me to writing the game in the first place. I think that drug trade is horrific; I think our criminalization of drugs will eventually be seen as one of the great tragedies of the modern era, on par with the slave trade and the Holocaust. Literally millions of lives have been ripped apart by government policies that have enabled criminal gangs to transform rich and vibrant countries into narcostates.
As a Mexican-American designer living in a border state (New Mexico), I feel compelled to address this issue. It’s part of my life, my home, my family’s story, even if I might like to ignore it. But because I’ve grown up in an environment that prioritizes European stories, especially centered around elves and dwarves, I’ve been at a loss for how to express this work. Urban Shadows does some of that (huge thanks to +Andrew Medeiros for helping me work through adding race to a game), but it’s not enough. It’s not Mexican; it’s not about me or my people.
Cartel is my attempt to tell a story about Mexico. It’s a story that’s happening right now, that’s victimizing Mexicans, that’s doing horrific damage to a country that’s part of my heritage, part of my story. It’s a story that I think is compelling and interesting, one in which there are no easy answers:
What would you tell the sicarias and halcones who take jobs in the cartel because there isn’t anything better?
How should cops do their jobs, when everyone is a polizeta and they don’t know who to trust?
Is there any way for a narco to do business without killing, without violence, to make a it a business instead of a regime?
These are stories that shows like The Wire tackle beautifully. The world it presents is brutal; it hurts sometimes to watch characters like Stringer, and Omar and Snoop work in a system that rewards their worst habits and demonizes their attempts to do good. My heart breaks.
That’s where this game comes from: a broken heart for a country and a people that I love. And my hope is that people that play it gain a drop of understanding for the terrible truth that you clearly already know: the drug war is murder, no matter who pulls the trigger.
There are two quotes that spring to mind at your questions, +Jason Cordova: one about wisdom and one about art. The first was Bobby Kennedy’s favorite poem, and he recited it, from memory, on the night of his brother’s death:
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. – Aeschylus
And the second is by the Bard himself, on the nature of art:
_If we shadows have offended
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumbered here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend:
If you pardon, we will mend:
And, as I am an honest Puck,
If we have unearned luck
Now to ‘scape the serpent’s tongue,
We will make amends ere long;
Else the Puck a liar call;
So, good night unto you all.
Give me your hands, if we be friends,
Robin shall restore amends. – Puck, A Midsummer Night’s Dream_
When it comes to the drug war… I have no words. But I might have some shadows that I can summon up, some tales that could help to teach people about the tragedy that takes place 10 hours from my hometown (and in my hometown) in a way that makes them confront Mexico, not as a foreign and exotic land… but as a home, a place that people live and die in as normal, everyday people.
In the interest of fairness, I’m going to paste-in Mark Diaz Truman’s response to me from the other thread:
First, thanks for posting here. I think your concerns are real, and I’m going to do my best to address them. It may be that I can’t address them to your satisfaction, but I’m going to try. If you’d like, I’d be happy to send you a PDF of the game, and you can judge the full thing for yourself. I’d love to hear how you think I could address the concerns you have, once you’ve read the full text.
@All- I don’t think there’s any reason to assume that Jason’s concerns aren’t in good faith, and I agree with him that my heritage doesn’t offer me much defense if I’ve fucked this up (nor do I think we should be in the habit of trying to determine who is “Mexican” or “brown” over the internet). Let’s all be Fonzie’s and try to have a cool conversation here.
Let me start by saying that the concerns Jason raises are exactly the concerns that led me to writing the game in the first place. I think that drug trade is horrific; I think our criminalization of drugs will eventually be seen as one of the great tragedies of the modern era, on par with the slave trade and the Holocaust. Literally millions of lives have been ripped apart by government policies that have enabled criminal gangs to transform rich and vibrant countries into narcostates.
As a Mexican-American designer living in a border state (New Mexico), I feel compelled to address this issue. It’s part of my life, my home, my family’s story, even if I might like to ignore it. But because I’ve grown up in an environment that prioritizes European stories, especially centered around elves and dwarves, I’ve been at a loss for how to express this work. Urban Shadows does some of that (huge thanks to +Andrew Medeiros for helping me work through adding race to a game), but it’s not enough. It’s not Mexican; it’s not about me or my people.
Cartel is my attempt to tell a story about Mexico. It’s a story that’s happening right now, that’s victimizing Mexicans, that’s doing horrific damage to a country that’s part of my heritage, part of my story. It’s a story that I think is compelling and interesting, one in which there are no easy answers:
What would you tell the sicarias and halcones who take jobs in the cartel because there isn’t anything better?
How should cops do their jobs, when everyone is a polizeta and they don’t know who to trust?
Is there any way for a narco to do business without killing, without violence, to make a it a business instead of a regime?
These are stories that shows like The Wire tackle beautifully. The world it presents is brutal; it hurts sometimes to watch characters like Stringer, and Omar and Snoop work in a system that rewards their worst habits and demonizes their attempts to do good. My heart breaks.
That’s where this game comes from: a broken heart for a country and a people that I love. And my hope is that people that play it gain a drop of understanding for the terrible truth that you clearly already know: the drug war is murder, no matter who pulls the trigger.
There are two quotes that spring to mind at your questions, +Jason Cordova: one about wisdom and one about art. The first was Bobby Kennedy’s favorite poem, and he recited it, from memory, on the night of his brother’s death:
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. – Aeschylus
And the second is by the Bard himself, on the nature of art:
_If we shadows have offended
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumbered here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend:
If you pardon, we will mend:
And, as I am an honest Puck,
If we have unearned luck
Now to ‘scape the serpent’s tongue,
We will make amends ere long;
Else the Puck a liar call;
So, good night unto you all.
Give me your hands, if we be friends,
Robin shall restore amends. – Puck, A Midsummer Night’s Dream_
When it comes to the drug war… I have no words. But I might have some shadows that I can summon up, some tales that could help to teach people about the tragedy that takes place 10 hours from my hometown (and in my hometown) in a way that makes them confront Mexico, not as a foreign and exotic land… but as a home, a place that people live and die in as normal, everyday people.
And my response to his response:
Thanks for taking the time to respond. My gaming community, The Gauntlet, (admittedly, a small and deeply insular one) has supported your work for awhile, and Cartel has been on our radar for a bit.
I think the best ‘message’ games get their point across in the way you interact with them mechanically. I’m thinking of Steal Away Jordan, Dog Eat Dog, My Life with Master, and others. In those games, the mechanics force you to think critically about the subject at-hand. You experience the mechanical powerlessness of the natives in Dog Eat Dog in the face of the atrocities being enacted upon them, and you can’t help but learn something.
I’m not sure that is what is going on in this game. It reads to me as “Breaking Bad with Mexicans.” The moves, many of which are violent, are of a piece with any other old PbtA game where violence is just a thing that happens. How do you adequately express the violence of this very real and present tragedy without forcing people to actually role-play it? I don’t think anyone would play a game with a move called “Rape and Behead,” but I’m not sure how else, in a PbtA game, you express the horror of the situation. And if you’re not going to make people feel something, then I think the game is either a) myopic or b) exploitatitve (even if, as is certainly the case here, it was not your intention).
There is a great role-playing game out there that adequately explores this topic, we just haven’t come upon it yet. I don’t think I, personally, want to play that game, but I think such a game can have value.
Anyway, take that for what it’s worth. And thanks again for responding.
And my response to his response:
Thanks for taking the time to respond. My gaming community, The Gauntlet, (admittedly, a small and deeply insular one) has supported your work for awhile, and Cartel has been on our radar for a bit.
I think the best ‘message’ games get their point across in the way you interact with them mechanically. I’m thinking of Steal Away Jordan, Dog Eat Dog, My Life with Master, and others. In those games, the mechanics force you to think critically about the subject at-hand. You experience the mechanical powerlessness of the natives in Dog Eat Dog in the face of the atrocities being enacted upon them, and you can’t help but learn something.
I’m not sure that is what is going on in this game. It reads to me as “Breaking Bad with Mexicans.” The moves, many of which are violent, are of a piece with any other old PbtA game where violence is just a thing that happens. How do you adequately express the violence of this very real and present tragedy without forcing people to actually role-play it? I don’t think anyone would play a game with a move called “Rape and Behead,” but I’m not sure how else, in a PbtA game, you express the horror of the situation. And if you’re not going to make people feel something, then I think the game is either a) myopic or b) exploitatitve (even if, as is certainly the case here, it was not your intention).
There is a great role-playing game out there that adequately explores this topic, we just haven’t come upon it yet. I don’t think I, personally, want to play that game, but I think such a game can have value.
Anyway, take that for what it’s worth. And thanks again for responding.
Interesting back and forth between you two.
Btw here is the article that makes me interested in playing The Hood. It talks about how the game brings forth the experience of what it means to live in a impoverished urban area and why it’s important to have these experiences in games. http://www.contessa.rocks/contessa/why-the-hood-matters
Not sure how some of these concepts could map to Cartel as I haven’t really looked at Cartel. However it may be interesting to inject some of this into Cartel to give the game more real world connection that is respectful of the real world tragedy.
Interesting back and forth between you two.
Btw here is the article that makes me interested in playing The Hood. It talks about how the game brings forth the experience of what it means to live in a impoverished urban area and why it’s important to have these experiences in games. http://www.contessa.rocks/contessa/why-the-hood-matters
Not sure how some of these concepts could map to Cartel as I haven’t really looked at Cartel. However it may be interesting to inject some of this into Cartel to give the game more real world connection that is respectful of the real world tragedy.
This is an entirely separate issue, but in the other thread, people are dismissing my opinion because 1) I haven’t yet played the game and 2) games are just supposed to be about having fun, so chill out man.
Anyone with even a passing knowledge of how the indie RPG community conducts itself knows that both of those sentiments are being expressed pretty disingenuously. We need look no further than The Misery Index to know our community likes to condemn games out of hand without actually playing them. At least The Misery Index had the balls to make a game explicitly about rape. As for the other criticism, I’m sorry, but we don’t get to have it both ways. Games are either art or they are not. We either owe serious subject matter appropriate treatment or we do not. It is a cop-out to say we should just be having fun.
This is an entirely separate issue, but in the other thread, people are dismissing my opinion because 1) I haven’t yet played the game and 2) games are just supposed to be about having fun, so chill out man.
Anyone with even a passing knowledge of how the indie RPG community conducts itself knows that both of those sentiments are being expressed pretty disingenuously. We need look no further than The Misery Index to know our community likes to condemn games out of hand without actually playing them. At least The Misery Index had the balls to make a game explicitly about rape. As for the other criticism, I’m sorry, but we don’t get to have it both ways. Games are either art or they are not. We either owe serious subject matter appropriate treatment or we do not. It is a cop-out to say we should just be having fun.
Where was the original thread?
Where was the original thread?
https://plus.google.com/+MarkDiazTruman/posts/VMdwb5ZrLUi
https://plus.google.com/+MarkDiazTruman/posts/VMdwb5ZrLUi
I went and read the playbooks and basic moves. From the face of it, I totally agree that the focus is violence, which makes sense given the topic. There doesn’t seem to be repercussions for the violence at least in the game mechanics in the ashcan. Even the stress mechanic is cleared by inflicting violence on others.
All of this could be mediated by whatever the GM mechanics are. We don’t see the GM moves here in this ashcan which I’m curious to see. If the GM moves/mechanics focus on the cycle of violence — how violence begets violence and how it spills over to everyday people — then it could deal with the reality of the tragedy. Actually that could make for an interesting game where the players only power involves actions of violence, and yet every time they act with violence it causes more terrible repercussions.
This focus on the cycle of violence would make the violence more real than glamorized in that it would make the players feel trapped by their choices — if they choose to avoid violence they loose because all their power comes from violence and if they choose to use violence they may succeed in the short term but it causes horrible repercussions to friends, family and innocent bystanders. To make this work it would likely be best to start out where they are more innocent, before the violence really strikes home.
In this, I’m thinking of the show Boardwalk Empire where Nucky Thompson starts out just as a crooked politician/businessman looking for a quick buck. Soon it starts to get serious and he has to make the decision to either back out and loose everything or become an actual gangster and kill someone. After that it keeps ratcheting up as the stakes get higher.
I went and read the playbooks and basic moves. From the face of it, I totally agree that the focus is violence, which makes sense given the topic. There doesn’t seem to be repercussions for the violence at least in the game mechanics in the ashcan. Even the stress mechanic is cleared by inflicting violence on others.
All of this could be mediated by whatever the GM mechanics are. We don’t see the GM moves here in this ashcan which I’m curious to see. If the GM moves/mechanics focus on the cycle of violence — how violence begets violence and how it spills over to everyday people — then it could deal with the reality of the tragedy. Actually that could make for an interesting game where the players only power involves actions of violence, and yet every time they act with violence it causes more terrible repercussions.
This focus on the cycle of violence would make the violence more real than glamorized in that it would make the players feel trapped by their choices — if they choose to avoid violence they loose because all their power comes from violence and if they choose to use violence they may succeed in the short term but it causes horrible repercussions to friends, family and innocent bystanders. To make this work it would likely be best to start out where they are more innocent, before the violence really strikes home.
In this, I’m thinking of the show Boardwalk Empire where Nucky Thompson starts out just as a crooked politician/businessman looking for a quick buck. Soon it starts to get serious and he has to make the decision to either back out and loose everything or become an actual gangster and kill someone. After that it keeps ratcheting up as the stakes get higher.
Jason Cordova I left a comment in the other thread which resulted in some good discussion. It was brought up that the Stress mechanic is there to force players to make decisions that do harm to the relationships they care about and who they think they are as a person. Thus pulling in th repercussions of violence. It will be interesting to see what the rest of the rules are like especially the GM moves and recommendations as you don’t quite get that from just looking at the playbooks and basic moves.
Jason Cordova I left a comment in the other thread which resulted in some good discussion. It was brought up that the Stress mechanic is there to force players to make decisions that do harm to the relationships they care about and who they think they are as a person. Thus pulling in th repercussions of violence. It will be interesting to see what the rest of the rules are like especially the GM moves and recommendations as you don’t quite get that from just looking at the playbooks and basic moves.
Colin Fahrion I did see that. I’m refraining from commenting over there any more, mostly because I’d like to see the full text, and also because the author and I have said our respective bits. The discussion was certainly interesting. That guy Seth suggested that the Stress mechanic helps re-inforce the endless cycle of violence, which is admirable, but I think it also makes the PCs sympathetic (or at least pitiable), which is my main issue with the game. The narcos don’t need any additional help making the brutality of what they do seem sympathetic. The telenovelas, the narco songs, and all that other bullshit already do a great job of it. And now we have this game. Except in the case of this game, it’s just going to be thoughtless Americans playing Grand Theft Auto: the RPG.
The only way I can see this game gets a pass is if, like you suggest, it mechanically enforces a reckoning with the terrible effects this cycle of violence has on communities.
Colin Fahrion I did see that. I’m refraining from commenting over there any more, mostly because I’d like to see the full text, and also because the author and I have said our respective bits. The discussion was certainly interesting. That guy Seth suggested that the Stress mechanic helps re-inforce the endless cycle of violence, which is admirable, but I think it also makes the PCs sympathetic (or at least pitiable), which is my main issue with the game. The narcos don’t need any additional help making the brutality of what they do seem sympathetic. The telenovelas, the narco songs, and all that other bullshit already do a great job of it. And now we have this game. Except in the case of this game, it’s just going to be thoughtless Americans playing Grand Theft Auto: the RPG.
The only way I can see this game gets a pass is if, like you suggest, it mechanically enforces a reckoning with the terrible effects this cycle of violence has on communities.
The Cartel is anyone willing to get together to do bad things. They are in America, in Atlanta, kidnapping children, women, and men for sex slave trade. Most of America’s population now think that is awesome. That anythiing bad is awesome. I would suggest raiding nightclubs. That is what they do all violence for, money to party with drugs, hookers, and alcohol.
The Cartel is anyone willing to get together to do bad things. They are in America, in Atlanta, kidnapping children, women, and men for sex slave trade. Most of America’s population now think that is awesome. That anythiing bad is awesome. I would suggest raiding nightclubs. That is what they do all violence for, money to party with drugs, hookers, and alcohol.
I believe the Arabs and Nazis are at the heads of the cartels. You know, the infamous CIA Nazis.
I believe the Arabs and Nazis are at the heads of the cartels. You know, the infamous CIA Nazis.
I also noticed how beheading became more popular in the drug cartels when Taliban Arabs showed up and joined them.
I also noticed how beheading became more popular in the drug cartels when Taliban Arabs showed up and joined them.