So I posted the below on my FB and was immediately jumped by a level 10 Pathfinder Venture Captain (love you Dom) and a few of his level 1 goons. Wanted to post it in friendlier soil and see if I was a bit off base or was it the crowd that responded. I just can’t see the need for a 5th Bestiary.
Below was my original post.
This is why I switched to non-traditional RPGs. When I saw that Pathfinder was putting out a Bestiary 5, I shook my head and thought, ” I have been playing RPGs(mostly D&D) since 1989, and I have yet to fight 2/3rds of the Monsters in the 2nd Ed Monster Manual.” Why do we need 5 of them? This article sums up a bit of my feelings, I just refuse to pay big box cost for RPGs anymore. Especially to get the same thing again.
http://www.threeifbyspace.net/2014/11/class-warfare-tabletop-rpg-sucks-fault/
BTW, to see their responses go to… https://www.facebook.com/DoctorDuckButter/posts/10204127086848526?comment_id=10204128043432440¬if_t=feed_comment
BTW, to see their responses go to… https://www.facebook.com/DoctorDuckButter/posts/10204127086848526?comment_id=10204128043432440¬if_t=feed_comment
Answering a critique with “Since someone is enjoying it, it can’t be bad, therefore everything is equal and good”, doesn’t really get the point of criticism. More is not always healthy, especially since pazio seems to be making the same mistake TSR did. But that’s almost the board game/RPG/nerd culture today: More = Better. Who doesn’t want ANOTHER crappy Dr. Who mashup t-shirt that promotes my Kickstarter game?!
One topic: You are correct, I think, that the big house are turning out more and more derivative classes because people seem to (a) not want to use their imaginations, yet, (b) want a “thing” that makes their character unique in the party and (c) a lot of the RP in RPG has fallen by the wayside as video game exposure to RPGs has conditioned folks to view the character as spread sheets and archetypes. Instead of finding a role, folks want one baked in.
Answering a critique with “Since someone is enjoying it, it can’t be bad, therefore everything is equal and good”, doesn’t really get the point of criticism. More is not always healthy, especially since pazio seems to be making the same mistake TSR did. But that’s almost the board game/RPG/nerd culture today: More = Better. Who doesn’t want ANOTHER crappy Dr. Who mashup t-shirt that promotes my Kickstarter game?!
One topic: You are correct, I think, that the big house are turning out more and more derivative classes because people seem to (a) not want to use their imaginations, yet, (b) want a “thing” that makes their character unique in the party and (c) a lot of the RP in RPG has fallen by the wayside as video game exposure to RPGs has conditioned folks to view the character as spread sheets and archetypes. Instead of finding a role, folks want one baked in.
Or as someone more concise put it: “more and more gamers seem to have this idea that they can only do what’s in the rules”
Or as someone more concise put it: “more and more gamers seem to have this idea that they can only do what’s in the rules”
Good stuff, we commonly rant about prestige classes in our games. Pirate= fighter+boat, samurai =fighter + bushido , vampire hunter=fighter+sharpened stick, ect… all of it can be done with rp and equipment
Honistly i think classes are best used to limit styles of play. Want a connan style low magic setting? outlaw the wizard. Want a diplomicy and intrigue setting? Outlaw the fighter… want alot of crasy nonsense, alow anything
Good stuff, we commonly rant about prestige classes in our games. Pirate= fighter+boat, samurai =fighter + bushido , vampire hunter=fighter+sharpened stick, ect… all of it can be done with rp and equipment
Honistly i think classes are best used to limit styles of play. Want a connan style low magic setting? outlaw the wizard. Want a diplomicy and intrigue setting? Outlaw the fighter… want alot of crasy nonsense, alow anything
Ryan Marsh First of all, thanks for the podcast shoutout in the FB comments 🙂
Hmm . . .
I agree with Warren Denning about most trad players requiring tons of class options to make their character “unique.” I think we had a whole episode on that once; this idea that many players insist on “front-loading” what makes their character interesting, rather than discovering it through play (I’m drawing a blank on the episode number, but I’m pretty sure it was called “Melting the Special Snowflakes”). The non-stop publication of splat books, monster manuals and character classes serves to not only feed that impulse (“Please show me what’s interesting to do, Paizo!”), but to also ensure their business is a going concern. I get it.
I mean, this is a grand old tradition in the hobby, right? Palladium, decades later, is still publishing Rifts splat books, and is probably up to 500 character classes at this point. And yet, you can run dozens and dozens of successful sessions with just the core rulebook.
This is somewhat related to my Giving Me Life rant last week, but there are a lot of “players” out there who are content to just purchase and read tons of books. They like looking at them, neatly arranged on their shelves. Sure, someday they would like to actually play them, but in the meantime, look at all this cool new stuff! That impulse is strong in roleplaying games, and it’s what keeps publishers alive.
But it’s very sad, isn’t it? All of that money and energy could be spent organizing the most badass gaming group of all time (like we have with the Gauntlet). Instead, you just have a bunch of books, with the occasional session down at the FLGS or local con.
Ryan Marsh First of all, thanks for the podcast shoutout in the FB comments 🙂
Hmm . . .
I agree with Warren Denning about most trad players requiring tons of class options to make their character “unique.” I think we had a whole episode on that once; this idea that many players insist on “front-loading” what makes their character interesting, rather than discovering it through play (I’m drawing a blank on the episode number, but I’m pretty sure it was called “Melting the Special Snowflakes”). The non-stop publication of splat books, monster manuals and character classes serves to not only feed that impulse (“Please show me what’s interesting to do, Paizo!”), but to also ensure their business is a going concern. I get it.
I mean, this is a grand old tradition in the hobby, right? Palladium, decades later, is still publishing Rifts splat books, and is probably up to 500 character classes at this point. And yet, you can run dozens and dozens of successful sessions with just the core rulebook.
This is somewhat related to my Giving Me Life rant last week, but there are a lot of “players” out there who are content to just purchase and read tons of books. They like looking at them, neatly arranged on their shelves. Sure, someday they would like to actually play them, but in the meantime, look at all this cool new stuff! That impulse is strong in roleplaying games, and it’s what keeps publishers alive.
But it’s very sad, isn’t it? All of that money and energy could be spent organizing the most badass gaming group of all time (like we have with the Gauntlet). Instead, you just have a bunch of books, with the occasional session down at the FLGS or local con.
The debate on FB has actually attracted the attention of someone who is working on the Bestiary 5. I feel bad because I don’t want to crap on his baby, but even he admits that GMs don’t need 5 Bestiaries. I really am just challenging the fact that the D20 system is 16 years old, how much more do we need as far as material for it.
The debate on FB has actually attracted the attention of someone who is working on the Bestiary 5. I feel bad because I don’t want to crap on his baby, but even he admits that GMs don’t need 5 Bestiaries. I really am just challenging the fact that the D20 system is 16 years old, how much more do we need as far as material for it.
No one is arguing that these folks jobs should be taken away. But as RPG fans, we are just hoping the folks at the top are doing what is best for the hobby. Endless material that is banal is not it. Doing imaginative things is.
No one is arguing that these folks jobs should be taken away. But as RPG fans, we are just hoping the folks at the top are doing what is best for the hobby. Endless material that is banal is not it. Doing imaginative things is.
I tried to spread that opinion and tell the group that putting a glut on the market killed TSR in the 90s and OGL D20 in the 00s, but they want to continue to believe that the Emperor has clothing. We demand innovation in our technology, movies, shows, etc, but for some reason RPGs get a pass.
I tried to spread that opinion and tell the group that putting a glut on the market killed TSR in the 90s and OGL D20 in the 00s, but they want to continue to believe that the Emperor has clothing. We demand innovation in our technology, movies, shows, etc, but for some reason RPGs get a pass.
Does Bestiary 5 offer new creatures, or is it recycled monsters from other sources, simply branded “Pathfinder”? If it’s brand new creatures, then what’s the problem with a book of cool monsters that a gamer might want to read for pleasure in the same way he or she might devour a new novel? It’s not necessary to always play game material to enjoy it or be inspired by something in it for an element added to a game that is played.
I understand the broader criticism, but the referenced article even admits that this is material that gamers want. Our political leaders are supposed to lead us on better paths than we might choose ourselves (a can of worms, I know…), but it’s a stretch to expect a for-profit publisher to ignore the demands of the fans.
Does Bestiary 5 offer new creatures, or is it recycled monsters from other sources, simply branded “Pathfinder”? If it’s brand new creatures, then what’s the problem with a book of cool monsters that a gamer might want to read for pleasure in the same way he or she might devour a new novel? It’s not necessary to always play game material to enjoy it or be inspired by something in it for an element added to a game that is played.
I understand the broader criticism, but the referenced article even admits that this is material that gamers want. Our political leaders are supposed to lead us on better paths than we might choose ourselves (a can of worms, I know…), but it’s a stretch to expect a for-profit publisher to ignore the demands of the fans.
I wonder if if fans demand it, or just passively consume it? I mean did any fan go, “Man, I really wish I had a 5th Bestiary?” or did they say, “Let’s make a 5th Bestiary, because they will buy it.” It is almost Reagan-nomics, if you make the supply, there will be a demand.
I wonder if if fans demand it, or just passively consume it? I mean did any fan go, “Man, I really wish I had a 5th Bestiary?” or did they say, “Let’s make a 5th Bestiary, because they will buy it.” It is almost Reagan-nomics, if you make the supply, there will be a demand.