We haven’t had just a straight-up discussion post in awhile.
We have straight male players in The Gauntlet (they shall remain nameless) who have expressed discomfort playing gay male characters. Mostly, I just roll my eyes and get on with things, rather than point out that “Just because you’re playing a gay character, doesn’t mean you are gay.”
As a gay man, I should probably be offended, but I take comfort in the fact that most everyone else at the table finds their position embarrassing. The part that bothers me more is that their choice is often contra to the needs of the story being told. We recently played Fiasco, for example, and one of the relationship ties between Character X and Character Y was “a forbidden love affair” (or something like that), and up until that point, Character X and Character Y were men. Once that relationship tie got added, it suddenly became of paramount importance to change the gender of one of the characters to female, even though doing so made the story about 100 times less interesting (note: I’m sure there were ways to make the story more interesting with the character’s gender swapped, but the players in our case failed to do so).
Another thing that happens in The Gauntlet (I’m embarrassed to say) is discomfort by certain male players at having their character be the object of affection of a character played by another male player, regardless of the gender or sexual preference of the characters involved. It’s a wrinkle on the above problem, but many of the same issues are involved.
I’m curious where people stand on this. Should we always be allowed to just play the character we are more comfortable with? The specific case of feeling discomfort playing gay characters is almost the textbook definition of homophobia, but should we give people a pass in roleplaying games, since the experience is more immersive/personal?
Thoughts?
This speaks to a bigger issue with some individuals in regards to sexuality. If they have issues with these items, they are likely not comfortable with their own sexuality or maybe straight up homophobic (not sure if there is a more PR term for that word). I personally love the challenge of playing characters that are truly divergent from my own way of being. This allows you to see the world in new ways through the escapism of the game. I personally relish the challenge of trying to RP something that is considerably different then myself. As a hetero male, playing a gay character can sometimes add to the escape. I think my biggest issue with gay characters is the over the top portrayal of such roles in most cases. I guess that is part of RP in general but the over-the-top stereotype can sometimes be distracting.
This speaks to a bigger issue with some individuals in regards to sexuality. If they have issues with these items, they are likely not comfortable with their own sexuality or maybe straight up homophobic (not sure if there is a more PR term for that word). I personally love the challenge of playing characters that are truly divergent from my own way of being. This allows you to see the world in new ways through the escapism of the game. I personally relish the challenge of trying to RP something that is considerably different then myself. As a hetero male, playing a gay character can sometimes add to the escape. I think my biggest issue with gay characters is the over the top portrayal of such roles in most cases. I guess that is part of RP in general but the over-the-top stereotype can sometimes be distracting.
Speeking for myself, RPing a gay guy does cause me a little discompfort. So does RPing a lady, or RPing a love scene with another player of either gender (player gender) regaurdless of (character gender). I may just be a prude at heart. This does make awsome games like final girl a bit of a hassle.
I dont mean to judge anyone, i mean no offinse, but i sometimes hesitate to play those characters because i know i will heasitate and resist the story when people look to me for intimate moments. I remember another game where you and i where playing a barbarian and a wiziard and you suddenly declared the characters to be lovers. You then went into amazing detail. I thought this was hilarious and fun but i didn,t know what to do other then laugh.
When i start a character, it is a good assumption that it will be a man. If sex comes up my default character choice will be “where the women at?”. I amm not fundimently oposed to changing these, but it will slow me down and i am likely to hold back or forget later.
I also generaly play nice/good characters, but whenever i try to be an evil jerk i generaly realise how much further everyone else is going and i become the “straight man” again.
Also, yes, engineers
I like games where other people make declerations about your character, thats where fun happens. Its just certain kinds of fun are harder for me to delever.
To be fair, you left the table and the other players “gave me a way out” assuming that i would have an issue. Maybe i made a face, or the other guy didnt want it either. At that point nothing had been decided about either character including gender. I guess we both assumed we where boys but we might have both been ladys. I told them it didnt matter but went with lady as a half way measure. I wanted to be a mean high school B-word. Again i found it hard to compete with the venom of the other characters.
I think you should mostly play what you are compfortable with, but be ready for curve balls. It probably should be respected if a player does say “i am not compfortable with that, try another way”. It is going to happen and it doesent nessesarily mean they are a bad person, or think less of other players.
Speeking for myself, RPing a gay guy does cause me a little discompfort. So does RPing a lady, or RPing a love scene with another player of either gender (player gender) regaurdless of (character gender). I may just be a prude at heart. This does make awsome games like final girl a bit of a hassle.
I dont mean to judge anyone, i mean no offinse, but i sometimes hesitate to play those characters because i know i will heasitate and resist the story when people look to me for intimate moments. I remember another game where you and i where playing a barbarian and a wiziard and you suddenly declared the characters to be lovers. You then went into amazing detail. I thought this was hilarious and fun but i didn,t know what to do other then laugh.
When i start a character, it is a good assumption that it will be a man. If sex comes up my default character choice will be “where the women at?”. I amm not fundimently oposed to changing these, but it will slow me down and i am likely to hold back or forget later.
I also generaly play nice/good characters, but whenever i try to be an evil jerk i generaly realise how much further everyone else is going and i become the “straight man” again.
Also, yes, engineers
I like games where other people make declerations about your character, thats where fun happens. Its just certain kinds of fun are harder for me to delever.
To be fair, you left the table and the other players “gave me a way out” assuming that i would have an issue. Maybe i made a face, or the other guy didnt want it either. At that point nothing had been decided about either character including gender. I guess we both assumed we where boys but we might have both been ladys. I told them it didnt matter but went with lady as a half way measure. I wanted to be a mean high school B-word. Again i found it hard to compete with the venom of the other characters.
I think you should mostly play what you are compfortable with, but be ready for curve balls. It probably should be respected if a player does say “i am not compfortable with that, try another way”. It is going to happen and it doesent nessesarily mean they are a bad person, or think less of other players.
I don’t think you can force the issue. People come to the games to slip into skins they are comfortable with, and to have fun, and for some, they cannot enjoy themselves if they are the focus of same-sex attention. It is a stigma that is deeply ingrained in our culture, and while Role-Players are more used to taking on different roles, and doing improve, that does not apply to all of us. I personally encourage everyone to try new and different roles, as our games are an area to stretch your acting muscles and encourage trying something new. Also, while we may tease and poke fun, we all do it to each other, and there is a strong undercurrent of support and good nature to each of our games. I’ve never had anyone give me shit or shun me for any of my roles played in any games. Except when I’m letting out my inner monster-hunting fursona (a joke people, a joke!)
Let people play what they are comfortable with. If you want to press on it, you can take them aside later and ask why they had an issue, or ask one of the other senior members who may be closer to the person to do so. But to force it? That’s a recipe for disaster.
I don’t think you can force the issue. People come to the games to slip into skins they are comfortable with, and to have fun, and for some, they cannot enjoy themselves if they are the focus of same-sex attention. It is a stigma that is deeply ingrained in our culture, and while Role-Players are more used to taking on different roles, and doing improve, that does not apply to all of us. I personally encourage everyone to try new and different roles, as our games are an area to stretch your acting muscles and encourage trying something new. Also, while we may tease and poke fun, we all do it to each other, and there is a strong undercurrent of support and good nature to each of our games. I’ve never had anyone give me shit or shun me for any of my roles played in any games. Except when I’m letting out my inner monster-hunting fursona (a joke people, a joke!)
Let people play what they are comfortable with. If you want to press on it, you can take them aside later and ask why they had an issue, or ask one of the other senior members who may be closer to the person to do so. But to force it? That’s a recipe for disaster.
There are games you play to escape and have fun and it’s important to have a safe space for that.
There are also games you play to push yourself and stretch your comfort zone. If you are playing a “just fun” game and someone else at the table is playing a “push boundaries” game, someone is going to have a bad time.
Agree in advance whether there are “too far” scenarios, and what they are. We had to drill down very finely in one of my games to discover that “any coerced relationship is Not Okay” with one of the players. I hastily rewrote one of the monsters, who had a charm ability, because that ability was going to be used to woo women (NPCs only).
But until one of the other players pushed those buttons and boundaries, it hadn’t come up. So the player who wasn’t okay had a bad time because we didn’t talk about what those expectations were in advance.
There are games you play to escape and have fun and it’s important to have a safe space for that.
There are also games you play to push yourself and stretch your comfort zone. If you are playing a “just fun” game and someone else at the table is playing a “push boundaries” game, someone is going to have a bad time.
Agree in advance whether there are “too far” scenarios, and what they are. We had to drill down very finely in one of my games to discover that “any coerced relationship is Not Okay” with one of the players. I hastily rewrote one of the monsters, who had a charm ability, because that ability was going to be used to woo women (NPCs only).
But until one of the other players pushed those buttons and boundaries, it hadn’t come up. So the player who wasn’t okay had a bad time because we didn’t talk about what those expectations were in advance.
Like any game that’s run there will always be lines in the sand that are different for all people.
If someone joins a game and they know what may happen then they should’ve known better. If not then whoever else at the table that started the game or is in charge of it should’ve been more transparent.
This isn’t even about sexuality either as I’ve run Trad games where I couldn’t describe certain actions in combat due to some serious out of game player stuff.
$ .02
Like any game that’s run there will always be lines in the sand that are different for all people.
If someone joins a game and they know what may happen then they should’ve known better. If not then whoever else at the table that started the game or is in charge of it should’ve been more transparent.
This isn’t even about sexuality either as I’ve run Trad games where I couldn’t describe certain actions in combat due to some serious out of game player stuff.
$ .02
I like Stephanie Bryants point about expectations. What is reasonable? I guess ideally everyone would be on the same page. For me it is not the gender but rather the role playing of sexual content in general that makes me feel uncomfortable.
I like Stephanie Bryants point about expectations. What is reasonable? I guess ideally everyone would be on the same page. For me it is not the gender but rather the role playing of sexual content in general that makes me feel uncomfortable.
To clarify, no one is talking about on-screen sex in the RP. Flirting and innuendo? Sure. But we always fade to black for the more serious stuff.
To clarify, no one is talking about on-screen sex in the RP. Flirting and innuendo? Sure. But we always fade to black for the more serious stuff.
“tell me about your homeworld”
“tell me about your homeworld”
I can do light hearted joking, innuendo with the best of them. You know what i mean, know what i mean, wink wink,nudge nuge, say no more, say no more. But anything outside of joke context, even flirting, can be difficult and uncomfortable. Its great to push your boundries, and i hope to continue to do so, but it takes effort and the slow downs can be embarising
I can do light hearted joking, innuendo with the best of them. You know what i mean, know what i mean, wink wink,nudge nuge, say no more, say no more. But anything outside of joke context, even flirting, can be difficult and uncomfortable. Its great to push your boundries, and i hope to continue to do so, but it takes effort and the slow downs can be embarising
Here’s a funny thing (somewhat related): tonight’s Wednesday One-Shots is going to be our least-attended session in two years. Next week’s has even fewer RSVPs. Tonight is a game almost entirely about Victorian women (Regency Ladies) and next week’s is a game about young gay love during the Spanish Civil War (Hot Guys Making Out).
Everyone is entitled to make a judgment about what they think will be fun, and whether or not to come to something, but I think both cases stand as proof that this community can be very disappointing at times.
Here’s a funny thing (somewhat related): tonight’s Wednesday One-Shots is going to be our least-attended session in two years. Next week’s has even fewer RSVPs. Tonight is a game almost entirely about Victorian women (Regency Ladies) and next week’s is a game about young gay love during the Spanish Civil War (Hot Guys Making Out).
Everyone is entitled to make a judgment about what they think will be fun, and whether or not to come to something, but I think both cases stand as proof that this community can be very disappointing at times.
Yes. That would make me uncomfortable. But to further clarify on my part I would be willing to give it a try if it were the flavor of the day.
Yes. That would make me uncomfortable. But to further clarify on my part I would be willing to give it a try if it were the flavor of the day.
I would be there next week cept con, but I get your point.
I would be there next week cept con, but I get your point.
Well, I’ve been RPing for over 30 years. I’ve played some very long-term campaigns. I’ve played characters who fell in and out of love, multiple times. I’ve played murderers, sociopaths, angels, and vampires. I’ve played hypersexualized hookers and asexual wizards. I’ve carefully defined with other players “which base” our characters have gone to, including scenes that are downright smutty.
And yet, the hardest thing for me to do in a role-playing game is to say “I love you.” I can’t do it. The words are important and special to me. They roll right off my tongue (almost irritatingly often) when I’m speaking to someone I do love, but in a game? When it’s false? I can’t do it. I have to fade to black for that very important moment of emotional honesty. It bothers me that I can’t say it, because I want to be able to do that in a game– I want that to be a narrative option. But for me, it treads into unsafe emotional territory, so I don’t.
For some, flirting and innuendo is as honest as they’re going to get in terms of same-sex playfulness. If they’re at the game to have full control over their own character, then it may be important to honor that agency. If the game is about pushing boundaries and exploring the narration, then maybe there are other boundaries to push with those players, ones that don’t risk X-cards.
Well, I’ve been RPing for over 30 years. I’ve played some very long-term campaigns. I’ve played characters who fell in and out of love, multiple times. I’ve played murderers, sociopaths, angels, and vampires. I’ve played hypersexualized hookers and asexual wizards. I’ve carefully defined with other players “which base” our characters have gone to, including scenes that are downright smutty.
And yet, the hardest thing for me to do in a role-playing game is to say “I love you.” I can’t do it. The words are important and special to me. They roll right off my tongue (almost irritatingly often) when I’m speaking to someone I do love, but in a game? When it’s false? I can’t do it. I have to fade to black for that very important moment of emotional honesty. It bothers me that I can’t say it, because I want to be able to do that in a game– I want that to be a narrative option. But for me, it treads into unsafe emotional territory, so I don’t.
For some, flirting and innuendo is as honest as they’re going to get in terms of same-sex playfulness. If they’re at the game to have full control over their own character, then it may be important to honor that agency. If the game is about pushing boundaries and exploring the narration, then maybe there are other boundaries to push with those players, ones that don’t risk X-cards.
… I can show up, I stoped auto rsvping to stuff mostly to get back some more free time. also things like, hot guys making out, monster hearts, and possibly regency ladies are not my jam. I generally don’t want to add myself as a 7th player who will probably slow down and frustrate things. same deal with society of dreamers, I would love to play but feel I couldn’t keep the tone and would lessen the experience for others.
It should be said that not every game topic is going to be popular and the forbidden love angle probably wont be as popular or approachable as killing kobolds. I like comedy, and scifi/fantasy action movies and those are the same things I will thrive with in RPGs. I’m open to other stuff but it will be tricky
… I can show up, I stoped auto rsvping to stuff mostly to get back some more free time. also things like, hot guys making out, monster hearts, and possibly regency ladies are not my jam. I generally don’t want to add myself as a 7th player who will probably slow down and frustrate things. same deal with society of dreamers, I would love to play but feel I couldn’t keep the tone and would lessen the experience for others.
It should be said that not every game topic is going to be popular and the forbidden love angle probably wont be as popular or approachable as killing kobolds. I like comedy, and scifi/fantasy action movies and those are the same things I will thrive with in RPGs. I’m open to other stuff but it will be tricky
My take on it: when I first started playing games with the gauntlet, I was uncomfortable playing gender/ sexual preference different characters. I could play evil characters, good characters, religious, crazy, wise guy, etc because I understood them. A piece of all these things is a part of me. I can take what I know of myself and project it on a larger scale to make the character real and understandable to me.
This was more difficult to me with gender/sexually different characters because it’s more difficult for me to understand them. It’s hard to portray something you don’t understand, and to try to do so could mean I portray them in an offensive way.
Now that I have gotten better at role play in general I have tried these roles a bit more. A lot comes back to trust at the table: I have more of it now. When I know I can trust my fellow players I can explore characters I may not understand. Honestly, it’s more difficult to play a female (I can’t understand women for the life of me!!) and they are still my least played gender.
My take on it: when I first started playing games with the gauntlet, I was uncomfortable playing gender/ sexual preference different characters. I could play evil characters, good characters, religious, crazy, wise guy, etc because I understood them. A piece of all these things is a part of me. I can take what I know of myself and project it on a larger scale to make the character real and understandable to me.
This was more difficult to me with gender/sexually different characters because it’s more difficult for me to understand them. It’s hard to portray something you don’t understand, and to try to do so could mean I portray them in an offensive way.
Now that I have gotten better at role play in general I have tried these roles a bit more. A lot comes back to trust at the table: I have more of it now. When I know I can trust my fellow players I can explore characters I may not understand. Honestly, it’s more difficult to play a female (I can’t understand women for the life of me!!) and they are still my least played gender.
Whether it’s a guy uncomfortable playing a girl or a straight dude weirded out about playing a queer or a white dude not wanting to play a black person, it is basically a resistance about playing as “the other”. I think there is a difference between being uncomfortable playing the other for fear you won’t do it right (eg., play too over the top with stereotypes) vs. being uncomfortable because of some sort of prejudice/bias/hang ups.
The former is understandable and even sorta laudable; the latter is sad and disheartening. Neither should be show stoppers though and if they are personally I think people should get over their shit.
Roleplaying is a wonderful and safe way to experience what it is like to be someone not yourself whether that is a warrior dwarf with a drinking problem or a black queer librarian. And if you can’t get past your hang ups to even roleplay among friends as “the other” then how can you ever hope to understand them as a human being rather than just “the other”.
Also let’s be honest here — gays, lesbians, queers, genderqueers all have tons of experience of roleplaying cis straight people because they do it all the time just to get by in society. Same goes for woman roleplaying male culture to get by in the workplace, and Blacks roleplaying as stiff polite White people so as not to get arrested. So if you’re a white straight dude don’t you owe it to yourself — if not the World — to at least once try roleplaying as someone not your same gender, sexually, or ethnicity?
Whether it’s a guy uncomfortable playing a girl or a straight dude weirded out about playing a queer or a white dude not wanting to play a black person, it is basically a resistance about playing as “the other”. I think there is a difference between being uncomfortable playing the other for fear you won’t do it right (eg., play too over the top with stereotypes) vs. being uncomfortable because of some sort of prejudice/bias/hang ups.
The former is understandable and even sorta laudable; the latter is sad and disheartening. Neither should be show stoppers though and if they are personally I think people should get over their shit.
Roleplaying is a wonderful and safe way to experience what it is like to be someone not yourself whether that is a warrior dwarf with a drinking problem or a black queer librarian. And if you can’t get past your hang ups to even roleplay among friends as “the other” then how can you ever hope to understand them as a human being rather than just “the other”.
Also let’s be honest here — gays, lesbians, queers, genderqueers all have tons of experience of roleplaying cis straight people because they do it all the time just to get by in society. Same goes for woman roleplaying male culture to get by in the workplace, and Blacks roleplaying as stiff polite White people so as not to get arrested. So if you’re a white straight dude don’t you owe it to yourself — if not the World — to at least once try roleplaying as someone not your same gender, sexually, or ethnicity?
Btw Jason Cordova if I lived near y’all I’d totally jump into your game of Hot Guys Making Out.
Btw Jason Cordova if I lived near y’all I’d totally jump into your game of Hot Guys Making Out.
Colin Fahrion Well said.
Colin Fahrion Well said.
On a related note, a great article by Whitney “Strix” Beltrán on Why Minority Settings in RPG Matter http://www.contessa.rocks/contessa/why-minority-settings-in-rpgs-matter
On a related note, a great article by Whitney “Strix” Beltrán on Why Minority Settings in RPG Matter http://www.contessa.rocks/contessa/why-minority-settings-in-rpgs-matter
People should definitely play whatever they want to, but if I’m playing with someone who had the reactions you’ve described, it would really kill my enthusiasm and make it difficult for me to feel comfortable.
Edited to add: I say this as someone who used to be uncomfortable with all these things, then decided to ignore my discomfort and play through because I didn’t like that I was discomforted.
People should definitely play whatever they want to, but if I’m playing with someone who had the reactions you’ve described, it would really kill my enthusiasm and make it difficult for me to feel comfortable.
Edited to add: I say this as someone who used to be uncomfortable with all these things, then decided to ignore my discomfort and play through because I didn’t like that I was discomforted.
Just for context, I should point out we don’t have any players who are explicitly racist, misogynistic, etc. I kick those people out. And trust me: there have a been a few. Such people are now in the lesser Houston RPG groups, where they play Pathfinder and talk about how much they hate me.
But I think all of us have implicit biases, and there is value in identifying such things and exorcising them.
The conversation on this thread has been very good and enlightening so far.
Just for context, I should point out we don’t have any players who are explicitly racist, misogynistic, etc. I kick those people out. And trust me: there have a been a few. Such people are now in the lesser Houston RPG groups, where they play Pathfinder and talk about how much they hate me.
But I think all of us have implicit biases, and there is value in identifying such things and exorcising them.
The conversation on this thread has been very good and enlightening so far.
Which is what any good community should be: a place for open and enlightening discussion
Which is what any good community should be: a place for open and enlightening discussion
I gave Colin Fahrion’s post above a +1, but it deserves another verbal one.
And Jason Cordova, as for Hot Guys Making Out: Perhaps the turnout this time around isn’t so great, but we did had two full tables going when we played last year.
I gave Colin Fahrion’s post above a +1, but it deserves another verbal one.
And Jason Cordova, as for Hot Guys Making Out: Perhaps the turnout this time around isn’t so great, but we did had two full tables going when we played last year.
Steve Mains It looks like we’ll have two tables again this year.
Steve Mains It looks like we’ll have two tables again this year.
Twice the guys to make out with!
Twice the guys to make out with!