Daniel Lewis won’t let me talk about negative things on the podcast, but he has no power over me on Google+, so here it goes:
I am so disheartened by the OSR vs. Story Gamer tribalism that infects the indie RPG scene. It is the fucking worst, because, while I am principally a story gamer, I have a lot of affection for what the OSR people do, too. Mostly, I like to play games that are good. I don’t attach any kind of ideology to it, and I would certainly never say to anyone who is enjoying the kind of gaming they do “You’re destroying the hobby” or “You’re doing it wrong” (caveat for Pathfinder players: you are doing it wrong).
Maybe the role of The Gauntlet, and other gaming communities relatively new to the scene, is to reject this tribalism, and to reject the idea of using games to advance an agenda. In fact, as far as The Gauntlet goes, I’d say our focus on relentlessly playing games just for the fun of doing so makes us pretty radical in the indie RPG scene.
Thoughts?
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Any hobby will have different camps. Where there are camps, there is tribal feuds. There is no escape I’m afraid. I certainly applaud the Gauntlet for focusing on the really important part: fun.
Any hobby will have different camps. Where there are camps, there is tribal feuds. There is no escape I’m afraid. I certainly applaud the Gauntlet for focusing on the really important part: fun.
Focussing on what is fun about games seems like a likeable trait.
Focussing on what is fun about games seems like a likeable trait.
To begin, I believe a common issue is the lack of knowledge about the craft on both ends of the spectrum. Story gamers are seen as elitists who hold their nose up at “traditional games”, while OSR is seen as the basement dwelling cat-piss GMs who enjoy throwing rocks and Total Party Kills. The podcast gave us an excellent episode on OSR, and I know I still need to give it a second listen to grasp the idea of what OSR is all about.
After that, we come to the issue of “what is fun?” and the lack of willingness to try new things. I’m looking forward to have Doyle Tavener run Call of Cthulhu (I believe I’m signed up for that, if not, I have some knee breaking to do) and it will honestly be my first time playing that system. If someone were to run an OSR game I’d give it a shot, but that’s because of two reasons:
1) I keep an open mind and am willing to try new things, realizing that if they fail, the experience and analysis afterwards is part of the enjoyment of the game, much like watching a movie.
2) The people of The Gauntlet are fun to play with, both in the good and bad times, which heavily influences #1 above! And that may just be that tribalism coming up again.
The Gauntlet is a place I come to because I trust that anytime I do come, I will enjoy the game, I will enjoy the people, and that I will be treated as a valued member in exchange for being someone who gives back to the enjoyment of the game. And maybe that’s part of the issue: giving back to the game is hard, and at times almost work. But it’s worth the effort imho. But as we’ve seen, there are those who come and bring the A game, and those who want to come, be entertained, and will leave to do something else “more fun” at the drop of a hat.
As long as The Gauntlet is open to anyone, and we keep motivating each other to be excellent at the table, I think we can bridge the divide.
To begin, I believe a common issue is the lack of knowledge about the craft on both ends of the spectrum. Story gamers are seen as elitists who hold their nose up at “traditional games”, while OSR is seen as the basement dwelling cat-piss GMs who enjoy throwing rocks and Total Party Kills. The podcast gave us an excellent episode on OSR, and I know I still need to give it a second listen to grasp the idea of what OSR is all about.
After that, we come to the issue of “what is fun?” and the lack of willingness to try new things. I’m looking forward to have Doyle Tavener run Call of Cthulhu (I believe I’m signed up for that, if not, I have some knee breaking to do) and it will honestly be my first time playing that system. If someone were to run an OSR game I’d give it a shot, but that’s because of two reasons:
1) I keep an open mind and am willing to try new things, realizing that if they fail, the experience and analysis afterwards is part of the enjoyment of the game, much like watching a movie.
2) The people of The Gauntlet are fun to play with, both in the good and bad times, which heavily influences #1 above! And that may just be that tribalism coming up again.
The Gauntlet is a place I come to because I trust that anytime I do come, I will enjoy the game, I will enjoy the people, and that I will be treated as a valued member in exchange for being someone who gives back to the enjoyment of the game. And maybe that’s part of the issue: giving back to the game is hard, and at times almost work. But it’s worth the effort imho. But as we’ve seen, there are those who come and bring the A game, and those who want to come, be entertained, and will leave to do something else “more fun” at the drop of a hat.
As long as The Gauntlet is open to anyone, and we keep motivating each other to be excellent at the table, I think we can bridge the divide.
Mark Siwel You are also doing it wrong. 😉
Mark Siwel You are also doing it wrong. 😉
“Relentlessly playing games just for the fun of doing so”
Words to live by.
“Relentlessly playing games just for the fun of doing so”
Words to live by.
I don’t find your position radical at all. The “indie RPG scene” that I belong to does nothing but relentlessly play games (all kinds) for the fun of it.
In any case, I like The Gauntlet.
I don’t find your position radical at all. The “indie RPG scene” that I belong to does nothing but relentlessly play games (all kinds) for the fun of it.
In any case, I like The Gauntlet.
Have you actually heard anyone in the OSR or indie storygamer scene say “You’re destroying the hobby!” with a straight face? I don’t know maybe I don’t get around enough in the rpg gamer scene, but while I know a lot of opinionated gamers, I haven’t heard anyone really verbally piss all over someone just because they like something different.
Have you actually heard anyone in the OSR or indie storygamer scene say “You’re destroying the hobby!” with a straight face? I don’t know maybe I don’t get around enough in the rpg gamer scene, but while I know a lot of opinionated gamers, I haven’t heard anyone really verbally piss all over someone just because they like something different.
Personally, I enjoy the fact that there are these tribes of people who really get all focused on one niche or another. It’s that hyper-focus that can make for interesting games/music/film/art. With this hyper-focus you of course get people being very opinionated or mockery.
And personally I find opinionated positions and mockery of games/music/film/art fine as long as it’s paired with a genuine feeling of “I think it’s awesome that you love something that I don’t” and a “feel free to mock my own opinions as they are built on the same shifting sands as everyone else’s”.
I should state I don’t feel the same about sociopolitical issues or things that really touch on people’s lives. Maybe it’s my art school critique background but I feel that things like games/music/art are better and have more fertile soil to grow and change when there are opinions tossed about.
“You’re rolling that d20 all wrong”
Personally, I enjoy the fact that there are these tribes of people who really get all focused on one niche or another. It’s that hyper-focus that can make for interesting games/music/film/art. With this hyper-focus you of course get people being very opinionated or mockery.
And personally I find opinionated positions and mockery of games/music/film/art fine as long as it’s paired with a genuine feeling of “I think it’s awesome that you love something that I don’t” and a “feel free to mock my own opinions as they are built on the same shifting sands as everyone else’s”.
I should state I don’t feel the same about sociopolitical issues or things that really touch on people’s lives. Maybe it’s my art school critique background but I feel that things like games/music/art are better and have more fertile soil to grow and change when there are opinions tossed about.
“You’re rolling that d20 all wrong”
Colin Fahrion I should have mentioned I’m mostly talking about online communities/forums. Have I ever seen someone behave that way in person? No. But online? Yes, and routinely.
Honestly, it probably doesn’t bother me as much as my post implies. I was mostly bummed out by the fact that two designers I admire got into a spat yesterday over some trivial bullshit, and you could tell it all went back to the whole OSR v. Story Games thing.
I certainly don’t have an issue with critique. The stated goal of our podcast is to help create a critical framework through which to understand and appreciate roleplaying games. And I definitely take your point about how focused “tribes” can create great things. However, I do have a problem with venom, exclusion, and elitism (unless, of course, said elitism is being used to look down on Pathfinder players).
Colin Fahrion I should have mentioned I’m mostly talking about online communities/forums. Have I ever seen someone behave that way in person? No. But online? Yes, and routinely.
Honestly, it probably doesn’t bother me as much as my post implies. I was mostly bummed out by the fact that two designers I admire got into a spat yesterday over some trivial bullshit, and you could tell it all went back to the whole OSR v. Story Games thing.
I certainly don’t have an issue with critique. The stated goal of our podcast is to help create a critical framework through which to understand and appreciate roleplaying games. And I definitely take your point about how focused “tribes” can create great things. However, I do have a problem with venom, exclusion, and elitism (unless, of course, said elitism is being used to look down on Pathfinder players).
Colin Fahrion I’ve actually had several people tell me, in person, with complete seriousness, that I roll d20s wrong. Apparently some d20s are “countdown dice” with the numbers ordered sequentially, and obviously those aren’t as random as the nonsequentially ordered dice when they’re rolled on the table.
I don’t care; I will pursue my campaign of destroying this hobby with my big Koplow dice and no one can stop me!
Colin Fahrion I’ve actually had several people tell me, in person, with complete seriousness, that I roll d20s wrong. Apparently some d20s are “countdown dice” with the numbers ordered sequentially, and obviously those aren’t as random as the nonsequentially ordered dice when they’re rolled on the table.
I don’t care; I will pursue my campaign of destroying this hobby with my big Koplow dice and no one can stop me!
Jason Cordova ah yeah people can get stupid on forums. I don’t care for venomous jibes myself. There is a difference between fun mockery and that. Mostly my stance is formed by the fact that I’ve heard people take the other extreme saying any and all criticism or mockery is bad.
Tim Jensen ha! I mean they are right I guess that the difference in engraving on small numbers vs large ones would create a weight difference but it’s likely so statistically small.
Jason Cordova ah yeah people can get stupid on forums. I don’t care for venomous jibes myself. There is a difference between fun mockery and that. Mostly my stance is formed by the fact that I’ve heard people take the other extreme saying any and all criticism or mockery is bad.
Tim Jensen ha! I mean they are right I guess that the difference in engraving on small numbers vs large ones would create a weight difference but it’s likely so statistically small.
children have a very hard time controlling themselves on the internet (I’ve been that kid). and unfortunately there are a high number of adult Man babies (woman babies?) in this hobby.
on the plus side these are still probably not the majority, just an obnoxiously loud minority. many rational people probably know better then to try to argue in the same places and go have reasonable discussions elsewhere
children have a very hard time controlling themselves on the internet (I’ve been that kid). and unfortunately there are a high number of adult Man babies (woman babies?) in this hobby.
on the plus side these are still probably not the majority, just an obnoxiously loud minority. many rational people probably know better then to try to argue in the same places and go have reasonable discussions elsewhere