28 thoughts on “Episode 11 of the podcast landed this morning.”

  9. The only good secret amongst players I can remember is when a new player attacks the “skeleton floating in mid air down a passage” while the gauntlet veterans all look up and node at each other.

  10. The only good secret amongst players I can remember is when a new player attacks the “skeleton floating in mid air down a passage” while the gauntlet veterans all look up and node at each other.

  13. I don’t want to imply that we are using meta knowledge to save our characters, I have tempted many cave puddles, but we sometimes withhold meta knowledge to hilarious results.

  14. I don’t want to imply that we are using meta knowledge to save our characters, I have tempted many cave puddles, but we sometimes withhold meta knowledge to hilarious results.

  15. Ah, secrets. Love them in theory, but there’s so many barriers to pulling them off in a manner that improves play!

    The best use of secrets I’ve seen was in Viewscream, and I think it works for specific reasons.

    One: every Viewscream scenario is pre-scripted.

    Two: Viewscream is cultivated around playing off of paranoia and trust.

    Three: most people don’t have a secret, and the rule is generally that one of the characters is a traitor.

    Four: there are specific conditions for the traitor to reveal themselves, at which time (if they’ve played well and instilled enough paranoia against the “good” players) they often laugh at the poor suckers who bought their act.

    I’d love to see a game that effectively pulled off the sort of tension you’d see in The Resistance or Dead of Winter; I suspect that you’d have to have a very hefty amount of limitation to the secrets, maybe even have them be on cards. Have players draw three cards and pick one to be their Secret, for example.

  16. Ah, secrets. Love them in theory, but there’s so many barriers to pulling them off in a manner that improves play!

    The best use of secrets I’ve seen was in Viewscream, and I think it works for specific reasons.

    One: every Viewscream scenario is pre-scripted.

    Two: Viewscream is cultivated around playing off of paranoia and trust.

    Three: most people don’t have a secret, and the rule is generally that one of the characters is a traitor.

    Four: there are specific conditions for the traitor to reveal themselves, at which time (if they’ve played well and instilled enough paranoia against the “good” players) they often laugh at the poor suckers who bought their act.

    I’d love to see a game that effectively pulled off the sort of tension you’d see in The Resistance or Dead of Winter; I suspect that you’d have to have a very hefty amount of limitation to the secrets, maybe even have them be on cards. Have players draw three cards and pick one to be their Secret, for example.

  17. We used to have a player in my group who was all about mysterious backgrounds. He would only tell me (the GM) and I would dutifully try to weave it into the narrative but ultimately it made that story only his story. No one knew why the PC was doing what he was doing, he was pretty much playing his own game and finding things which were only relevant for him. None of his revelations landed in a way which made anyone care.

    Open secrets have been used in my group for a while, where moles in the group are known, secrets, anything like that.

    The best example is a Buffy RPG where one player was a psychic who was secretly a demon. This was the 1830’s and we had a demon hunter in our group, so we decided to dial up the demon-based racism in the group and encourage him keeping this secret. In the first two sessions we made sure that if he popped into his demon form we weren’t in the scene or were distracted in a fight. Eventually when it came out there were trust issues all over the place, not least because his clan were attempting to take over Earth. The drama wasn’t diminished, but instead added to because we all knew to help the story along. One players’ journey with his character affected all of us and made for some really interesting drama because there was that trust in the players.

  18. We used to have a player in my group who was all about mysterious backgrounds. He would only tell me (the GM) and I would dutifully try to weave it into the narrative but ultimately it made that story only his story. No one knew why the PC was doing what he was doing, he was pretty much playing his own game and finding things which were only relevant for him. None of his revelations landed in a way which made anyone care.

    Open secrets have been used in my group for a while, where moles in the group are known, secrets, anything like that.

    The best example is a Buffy RPG where one player was a psychic who was secretly a demon. This was the 1830’s and we had a demon hunter in our group, so we decided to dial up the demon-based racism in the group and encourage him keeping this secret. In the first two sessions we made sure that if he popped into his demon form we weren’t in the scene or were distracted in a fight. Eventually when it came out there were trust issues all over the place, not least because his clan were attempting to take over Earth. The drama wasn’t diminished, but instead added to because we all knew to help the story along. One players’ journey with his character affected all of us and made for some really interesting drama because there was that trust in the players.

  19. Thanks Jason Cordova  for capturing in words my sheer aversion for secrets at the table ^^

    I love and promote secrets between characters at the table (not the players, no private conversation at my table!)

    I swear if a secret agenda between a player and the GM keeps being dangled at my face during a whole campain again, I’ll chop the gaming table to pieces 🙂

    Imho the big reveal only works in indie games specifically designed for it. (Mountain witch or Psi-Run like the gauntlet said. )

    Otherwise that’s just two players masturbating each other while the frustrated audience watch  … (What? Did I just type that?! XD)

  20. Thanks Jason Cordova  for capturing in words my sheer aversion for secrets at the table ^^

    I love and promote secrets between characters at the table (not the players, no private conversation at my table!)

    I swear if a secret agenda between a player and the GM keeps being dangled at my face during a whole campain again, I’ll chop the gaming table to pieces 🙂

    Imho the big reveal only works in indie games specifically designed for it. (Mountain witch or Psi-Run like the gauntlet said. )

    Otherwise that’s just two players masturbating each other while the frustrated audience watch  … (What? Did I just type that?! XD)

  21. In the case of Annalise–even if we remove the bizarre aspect of the game where some secrets are just what they sound like and some secrets are blatantly just superpowers–I’m not sure what keeping those secrets from the other players adds to the game.  Like, the game has you hint at your secrets obliquely through the course of the game until you can finally reveal them at the endgame, but I don’t think there’s much gained by not just having everyone know what you’re hinting at.

    I can’t think of a time when keeping secrets from other players added enough to a game to justify their presence.

  22. In the case of Annalise–even if we remove the bizarre aspect of the game where some secrets are just what they sound like and some secrets are blatantly just superpowers–I’m not sure what keeping those secrets from the other players adds to the game.  Like, the game has you hint at your secrets obliquely through the course of the game until you can finally reveal them at the endgame, but I don’t think there’s much gained by not just having everyone know what you’re hinting at.

    I can’t think of a time when keeping secrets from other players added enough to a game to justify their presence.

  23. I was in a few games where secrets were kept from other players and most of the time it wasn’t worth it.

    There are a few circumstance I saw it work though.

    – To set up something in the very near future. If for example it is revealed at the end of the scene that the character had a secret magic spell working. It doesn’t make the whole game about them but gives a bit of suspense about what is happening.

    Similar revealing that one of the characters is a traitor to the other player’s in the second session of a longer campaign can give a similar effect and doesn’t make it the Big Reveal right at the end. But one reveal about the character and it probably is revealed to the players before it is revealed to their characters.

    In horror scenarios I have sometimes used hidden information with one player to make a scene more creepy because their behavior was odd, but it did not always work out. Usually when the reveal was pretty imidiate.

    I think the secret needs something that intrigues the players and the solution has to come while they are still intrigued.

    – In a game that is very player vs. player and has a framework to use the secrets against one another. I heard of this working out in LARPs and experienced in in Play by Post. Usually those games had a larger number of players and more of a GM as referee role.

  24. I was in a few games where secrets were kept from other players and most of the time it wasn’t worth it.

    There are a few circumstance I saw it work though.

    – To set up something in the very near future. If for example it is revealed at the end of the scene that the character had a secret magic spell working. It doesn’t make the whole game about them but gives a bit of suspense about what is happening.

    Similar revealing that one of the characters is a traitor to the other player’s in the second session of a longer campaign can give a similar effect and doesn’t make it the Big Reveal right at the end. But one reveal about the character and it probably is revealed to the players before it is revealed to their characters.

    In horror scenarios I have sometimes used hidden information with one player to make a scene more creepy because their behavior was odd, but it did not always work out. Usually when the reveal was pretty imidiate.

    I think the secret needs something that intrigues the players and the solution has to come while they are still intrigued.

    – In a game that is very player vs. player and has a framework to use the secrets against one another. I heard of this working out in LARPs and experienced in in Play by Post. Usually those games had a larger number of players and more of a GM as referee role.

  25. Hey! My name is Tamatoa, long time listener first time caller. I just want to say how big a fan of this podcast I have become. Also I have a comment:

    Regarding secrets, I do not agree with the general opinion portrayed with in this broadcast. I believe that secrets can be used to give certain games an additional depth both in terms of story and tone. In our beloved Dungeon World the DM uses secrets in this way through the use of “Grim Portents”. The players have set in motion some event that is beyond their comprehension but are limitedly aware of outside of play by the announcement or non-verbal communication by the DM. The best use I have seen of this is by the non-verbal ticking of a tally by the DM in plain sight of the players. Everyone at the table knows something has just gone very badly but they have no information regarding its nature. While I cannot speak for everyone, I can say that the action of that singular pencil stroke falls like a hammer and the result is real miasmic stress.

    With in the same game this kind foreshadowing could be easily introduced between the player/players and the DM. For example, let us say that a player has met with a possible gruesome end but saves themselves with the “Last Breath” roll allowing for a deal with death. The DM passes the player a note in plain site with the proposed deal. If the player refuses they tear up the note and pass on. If they accept they say nothing but retain the note. Everyone at the table has knowledge but no one knows. That would add a level of stress to dealing with that character going forward and if used correctly would give the story an unexpected twist at an appropriate time.

                    One game that appeared to use secrets very well and praised highly was I believe “The Mountain Witch”. In this instance the secrets were discussed by the player and the DM before the games start and was slowly revealed through out the story.

                    Secretive behavior falls short in many games because; The PVP is broken, the idea of secrets is tacked on and not thought through, the players including the dm do work well together, and when people use the idea obnoxiously. If the game and players can avoid these pitfalls then secrets can be an effective tool for creating a since of mystery and introducing stress. The reason that some many of us feel that secrets fall short is because, as has been discussed previously, most games that we play have terrible PVP mechanics. I would also like to say that secrets between characters that have not been discussed with the DM, if there is one, would across the board be irritating and ruin the game.

  26. Hey! My name is Tamatoa, long time listener first time caller. I just want to say how big a fan of this podcast I have become. Also I have a comment:

    Regarding secrets, I do not agree with the general opinion portrayed with in this broadcast. I believe that secrets can be used to give certain games an additional depth both in terms of story and tone. In our beloved Dungeon World the DM uses secrets in this way through the use of “Grim Portents”. The players have set in motion some event that is beyond their comprehension but are limitedly aware of outside of play by the announcement or non-verbal communication by the DM. The best use I have seen of this is by the non-verbal ticking of a tally by the DM in plain sight of the players. Everyone at the table knows something has just gone very badly but they have no information regarding its nature. While I cannot speak for everyone, I can say that the action of that singular pencil stroke falls like a hammer and the result is real miasmic stress.

    With in the same game this kind foreshadowing could be easily introduced between the player/players and the DM. For example, let us say that a player has met with a possible gruesome end but saves themselves with the “Last Breath” roll allowing for a deal with death. The DM passes the player a note in plain site with the proposed deal. If the player refuses they tear up the note and pass on. If they accept they say nothing but retain the note. Everyone at the table has knowledge but no one knows. That would add a level of stress to dealing with that character going forward and if used correctly would give the story an unexpected twist at an appropriate time.

                    One game that appeared to use secrets very well and praised highly was I believe “The Mountain Witch”. In this instance the secrets were discussed by the player and the DM before the games start and was slowly revealed through out the story.

                    Secretive behavior falls short in many games because; The PVP is broken, the idea of secrets is tacked on and not thought through, the players including the dm do work well together, and when people use the idea obnoxiously. If the game and players can avoid these pitfalls then secrets can be an effective tool for creating a since of mystery and introducing stress. The reason that some many of us feel that secrets fall short is because, as has been discussed previously, most games that we play have terrible PVP mechanics. I would also like to say that secrets between characters that have not been discussed with the DM, if there is one, would across the board be irritating and ruin the game.

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