I’m going to pin this podcast discussion/feedback post to the top of the page. If you have any thoughts about something we have said recently, or if you’d like to challenge one of our assertions, post it in the comments. We may discuss your comments in a future episode.
Of course, if we have gotten everything right, feel free to leave this space blank.
You need something between segments when you say “take a break”, like a musical interlude or a product placement.
You need something between segments when you say “take a break”, like a musical interlude or a product placement.
Ferrell Riley A fair point, but I think we were looking for substantive feedback; things we can discuss on the show.
Ferrell Riley A fair point, but I think we were looking for substantive feedback; things we can discuss on the show.
So like I said previously, I really enjoy the show but do sometimes differ strongly in opinion on some points! 😀
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One thing that I think popped up a few times was “roleplay rewards as crutch”. I think there were a few instances where somebody talked about a particular reward mechanism in a game as a way to help somebody learn how to roleplay, and there was a general reply of “Yeah, I don’t really need that help now.” I think Fate’s compels might have been one of the referenced mechanics, I don’t remember.
I disagree with that view; in my opinion, reward mechanics can be viewed as bribes, but don’t have to be. They’re also a way of tying a character’s actions into the game mechanics. I think of them as a consequence of the character’s actions. For example, in Burning Wheel, characters who wrestle with their Beliefs will accumulate Fate and Persona due to it, similar to how Dungeon World characters who consistently follow their alignment and take steps to engage with their Bonds will find themselves marking off more XP at the end of a session. (Oh gee, I hit all the Gauntlet buttons now! 😛 Sorry about that.)
If I were to sum up, I would say that roleplaying rewards (including properly-done roleplaying XP) don’t have to be crutches for the inexperienced; they can also be levers for the game system, creating a sort of dramatic feedback loop.
Plus, I figure that nobody is too good at roleplaying that they don’t need prods here or there.
So like I said previously, I really enjoy the show but do sometimes differ strongly in opinion on some points! 😀
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One thing that I think popped up a few times was “roleplay rewards as crutch”. I think there were a few instances where somebody talked about a particular reward mechanism in a game as a way to help somebody learn how to roleplay, and there was a general reply of “Yeah, I don’t really need that help now.” I think Fate’s compels might have been one of the referenced mechanics, I don’t remember.
I disagree with that view; in my opinion, reward mechanics can be viewed as bribes, but don’t have to be. They’re also a way of tying a character’s actions into the game mechanics. I think of them as a consequence of the character’s actions. For example, in Burning Wheel, characters who wrestle with their Beliefs will accumulate Fate and Persona due to it, similar to how Dungeon World characters who consistently follow their alignment and take steps to engage with their Bonds will find themselves marking off more XP at the end of a session. (Oh gee, I hit all the Gauntlet buttons now! 😛 Sorry about that.)
If I were to sum up, I would say that roleplaying rewards (including properly-done roleplaying XP) don’t have to be crutches for the inexperienced; they can also be levers for the game system, creating a sort of dramatic feedback loop.
Plus, I figure that nobody is too good at roleplaying that they don’t need prods here or there.
Andy Hauge One of the things I try to take into consideration when thinking about whether or not to invest my time and/or money in a roleplaying game is the game’s reward vs. effort ratio. If a game’s pretty fun, but I basically have to approach it like a second job in order to laboriously extract that fun, I’m far less likely to play it than a game where I know I’ll have a great time without really trying.
I have totally seen Fate aspects work great to encourage roleplaying, from old hands to players completely new to the hobby. However, Fate’s ratio is all off. There’s a lot of handling time and effort that goes into even a semi-successful Fate game. On the other hand, something like Primetime Adventures’ fanmail (and Golden Sky Stories does something similar) works at the speed of the game and with no real interruption of the fiction. That ratio’s really high. The fact that aspects are tied more closely to the character in Fate than just the “that was really cool!” of PTA doesn’t, in my experience, add enough to the game to justify the extra effort.
In other words, give me an easy feedback loop and I’m listening. Something pretty involved? I’m probably better on my own.
Andy Hauge One of the things I try to take into consideration when thinking about whether or not to invest my time and/or money in a roleplaying game is the game’s reward vs. effort ratio. If a game’s pretty fun, but I basically have to approach it like a second job in order to laboriously extract that fun, I’m far less likely to play it than a game where I know I’ll have a great time without really trying.
I have totally seen Fate aspects work great to encourage roleplaying, from old hands to players completely new to the hobby. However, Fate’s ratio is all off. There’s a lot of handling time and effort that goes into even a semi-successful Fate game. On the other hand, something like Primetime Adventures’ fanmail (and Golden Sky Stories does something similar) works at the speed of the game and with no real interruption of the fiction. That ratio’s really high. The fact that aspects are tied more closely to the character in Fate than just the “that was really cool!” of PTA doesn’t, in my experience, add enough to the game to justify the extra effort.
In other words, give me an easy feedback loop and I’m listening. Something pretty involved? I’m probably better on my own.
Andy Hauge I think we’ll discuss your comment on Episode 8. If you have anything you’d like us to plug (a blog or something like that) let me know.
But, yeah, we made a decision early on to state our opinions plainly and unapologetically. Something I have noticed on other podcasts, and in the hobby more generally, is that ‘story gamers’ (a term I despise, btw) tend to be very diplomatic in framing their opinions. But I think that leads to a lack of clarity and makes it very difficult to build some sort of critical framework within which to evaluate games. Obviously, we never want to outright offend, but we think it’s doing the hobby a disservice to pussy-foot around criticism.
Andy Hauge I think we’ll discuss your comment on Episode 8. If you have anything you’d like us to plug (a blog or something like that) let me know.
But, yeah, we made a decision early on to state our opinions plainly and unapologetically. Something I have noticed on other podcasts, and in the hobby more generally, is that ‘story gamers’ (a term I despise, btw) tend to be very diplomatic in framing their opinions. But I think that leads to a lack of clarity and makes it very difficult to build some sort of critical framework within which to evaluate games. Obviously, we never want to outright offend, but we think it’s doing the hobby a disservice to pussy-foot around criticism.
Awesome! I definitely appreciate that.
(I run a blog called Ludicrus Gaming at http://ludicrusgaming.blogspot.com, which in hindsight causes all sorts of horrible problems because it’s hard to convey the spelling. I thought I was being clever. 😛 I have no idea if you have a decent way to plug it.)
Awesome! I definitely appreciate that.
(I run a blog called Ludicrus Gaming at http://ludicrusgaming.blogspot.com, which in hindsight causes all sorts of horrible problems because it’s hard to convey the spelling. I thought I was being clever. 😛 I have no idea if you have a decent way to plug it.)
More often then not I notice the xp rewards when someone suddenly decides to do something out of nowhere. It stops the story dead and makes no sense. You ask why and they say, “it gets me an xp” or “it fits my alignment”, and not why their character thinks it should be done.
I guess this is more a symptom of bad or limited choices at character creation. the better players pick the right ones and or don’t let the limited options slow them down.
In the worse cases its kind of a reward for not roleplaying. imagine a paladin that seeks out prisons in every town so that he can execute prisoners (deny mercy to a criminal) or stalks a wizard until he gets the “defend someone weaker then yourself” box checked, then runs off to do his own thing.
I try to play my character however they would act in that situation and view leveling up as an occasional bonus. I end up earning much more xp in DW due to failure rather then alignment or bonds.
More often then not I notice the xp rewards when someone suddenly decides to do something out of nowhere. It stops the story dead and makes no sense. You ask why and they say, “it gets me an xp” or “it fits my alignment”, and not why their character thinks it should be done.
I guess this is more a symptom of bad or limited choices at character creation. the better players pick the right ones and or don’t let the limited options slow them down.
In the worse cases its kind of a reward for not roleplaying. imagine a paladin that seeks out prisons in every town so that he can execute prisoners (deny mercy to a criminal) or stalks a wizard until he gets the “defend someone weaker then yourself” box checked, then runs off to do his own thing.
I try to play my character however they would act in that situation and view leveling up as an occasional bonus. I end up earning much more xp in DW due to failure rather then alignment or bonds.
also: suggested title for listener feedback: Nerd Rage!
also: suggested title for listener feedback: Nerd Rage!