Diceless games
Curiously, I don’t recall anyone discussing “diceless” games, like Amber, Lords of Gossamer and Shadow or Everway here… I own them, as you can see, and have read them over and over, but still have some reservations, but I think that having played games like Swords Without Master has made me think differently about these, particularly the task resolution mechanics (or lack thereof).
Also, the name is quite a funny holdover from the ’90s… “Diceless”. More like: “Randomizerless” and not even that, as Everway does have the Fortune deck.
Anyone have any experience with these? Any thoughts? Seems to me that these games share something with StoryGames like maybe Archipelago, or Swords Without Master. (I only have SWM experience, so I may be out of line here.)
Everway in particular is something I’d love to play. Barring that, Amber, though Amber is more PvP than anything else, and I’m not too keen on that, unless there were a PbtA hack, or something…
I’ve been curious for a while too but never played yet and have similar reservations as you. Moving states at the moment so I don’t have time to dig in and learn a new system in detail (to run it) but if there’s an online game going of any of the above I’m interested in playing. Particularly in Amber, LoGaS & Archipelago.
I’ve been curious for a while too but never played yet and have similar reservations as you. Moving states at the moment so I don’t have time to dig in and learn a new system in detail (to run it) but if there’s an online game going of any of the above I’m interested in playing. Particularly in Amber, LoGaS & Archipelago.
I was also interested in LoGaS, but haven’t looked into it much. Just the concept as advertised in the marketing of it fills me with trepidations. Everway is one I had not heard of. I’ll have to look again (swigs an ounce of courage.)…
I was also interested in LoGaS, but haven’t looked into it much. Just the concept as advertised in the marketing of it fills me with trepidations. Everway is one I had not heard of. I’ll have to look again (swigs an ounce of courage.)…
I’m in love with Nobilis, at least 3rd ed. You have to have a player on board with the right mindset though.
Chuubo’s Marvelous Wish Granting Engine is also interesting, although too crunchy for my tastes in terms of running it, and the setting doesn’t really grab me.
I’m in love with Nobilis, at least 3rd ed. You have to have a player on board with the right mindset though.
Chuubo’s Marvelous Wish Granting Engine is also interesting, although too crunchy for my tastes in terms of running it, and the setting doesn’t really grab me.
Amber has a HUGE following. There are Amber DRPG games/campaigns and even conventions (some include non-Amber games). LoGaS is slowly catching on, however, I have yet to play the game. I was gifted with Everway, but have yet to read or play it. I ran some online Amber games off and on for over a decade.
Amber has a HUGE following. There are Amber DRPG games/campaigns and even conventions (some include non-Amber games). LoGaS is slowly catching on, however, I have yet to play the game. I was gifted with Everway, but have yet to read or play it. I ran some online Amber games off and on for over a decade.
Kristopher Miller
Kristopher Miller
I’ve played (and GM’d) a great deal of Amber over the years I’m not the biggest fan of the system but I really enjoy the setting. But most versions I’ve played/GM’d are hacked about a great deal in the way they are presented so not exactly purist.
Also I’ve only ever experienced it in campaigns.
Some of those ways are:
1. Never run it as straight PvP although it is set up that way. It is far more interesting to give the players compelling in- fictional reasons to have interesting and complex relationships which consistently pull them between loyalty to the family and each other and bitter rivalry between each other. Allowing the players space to play out their split loyalites is where the real fun lies.
2. In Amber where one party has a clear stat advantage over the other such that they will automatically win the conflict I always hand the narrative over to the player with the stat advantage. They get to describe how they win and the immediate aftermath. It is an interesting division of creative control in an otherwise very trad game and the players love it. Then, as GM, you just make sure you incorporate the player’s responses in a cool way. What I love about this technique I invented is that in a game where the characters are much larger than life, occasionally godlike in the fiction, this allows the players to feel larger than life and that emotional reinforcement of reflecting the fiction is super fun.
I’ve played (and GM’d) a great deal of Amber over the years I’m not the biggest fan of the system but I really enjoy the setting. But most versions I’ve played/GM’d are hacked about a great deal in the way they are presented so not exactly purist.
Also I’ve only ever experienced it in campaigns.
Some of those ways are:
1. Never run it as straight PvP although it is set up that way. It is far more interesting to give the players compelling in- fictional reasons to have interesting and complex relationships which consistently pull them between loyalty to the family and each other and bitter rivalry between each other. Allowing the players space to play out their split loyalites is where the real fun lies.
2. In Amber where one party has a clear stat advantage over the other such that they will automatically win the conflict I always hand the narrative over to the player with the stat advantage. They get to describe how they win and the immediate aftermath. It is an interesting division of creative control in an otherwise very trad game and the players love it. Then, as GM, you just make sure you incorporate the player’s responses in a cool way. What I love about this technique I invented is that in a game where the characters are much larger than life, occasionally godlike in the fiction, this allows the players to feel larger than life and that emotional reinforcement of reflecting the fiction is super fun.
I have to second the comments that Becky Annison made. I don’t see many successful long-term PvP Amber games. Most groups do the traditional group of characters. However, if you are good at time management, splitting up the party can be very cool, so long as you are not spending too much time on any one PC. The conflict of interest relationships between the immortal family with godlike power in the setting can be incredibly fun, provided that everyone is in agreement how conflicts are handled. Most Amber players I know are cool with plot twists and dangerous threats that harm their character so long as the players involved are actively inviting it into the game.
I have to second the comments that Becky Annison made. I don’t see many successful long-term PvP Amber games. Most groups do the traditional group of characters. However, if you are good at time management, splitting up the party can be very cool, so long as you are not spending too much time on any one PC. The conflict of interest relationships between the immortal family with godlike power in the setting can be incredibly fun, provided that everyone is in agreement how conflicts are handled. Most Amber players I know are cool with plot twists and dangerous threats that harm their character so long as the players involved are actively inviting it into the game.
I often start a campaign by giving the PC group a mutual enemy (e.g. some faction in the courts of Chaos), someone they can bond over. And then driving small wedges between them over family loyalties.
I run a lot of one on one sessions and then bring the players together at various points – everyone I know who runs Amber does it this way.
David Miessler-Kubanek is right though – there is a lot of really interesting stories to be told amongst godlike figures who are in a dysfunctional family grouping. It gives the game a really mythic feel – like Greek mythology.
I often start a campaign by giving the PC group a mutual enemy (e.g. some faction in the courts of Chaos), someone they can bond over. And then driving small wedges between them over family loyalties.
I run a lot of one on one sessions and then bring the players together at various points – everyone I know who runs Amber does it this way.
David Miessler-Kubanek is right though – there is a lot of really interesting stories to be told amongst godlike figures who are in a dysfunctional family grouping. It gives the game a really mythic feel – like Greek mythology.
The new PBTA Vampire game Undying is diceless. It uses resource management to resolve Moves.
The new PBTA Vampire game Undying is diceless. It uses resource management to resolve Moves.
I never got the point of diceless. But then again, I never played that style. However, I am a fan of the Amber series of books.
I never got the point of diceless. But then again, I never played that style. However, I am a fan of the Amber series of books.